4 ms·

> asking to verify a phone number or upload an ID I’m pretty sure they’re not legally allowed to add extra requirements like this. If they were, sites could ma

> asking to verify a phone number or upload an ID I’m pretty sure they’re not legally allowed to add extra requirements like this. If they were, sites could make it almost impossible to take things down by adding a lot of requirements

jmholla 3y ago
As I learned from this comment [0], that kind of is a requirement. Section 512 requires a notice contain: > Information reasonably sufficient to permit the service provider to contact the complaining party, such as an address, telephone number and email address I think another poster hit the nail on the head, when they said (and I'm paraphrasing), these aren't real DMCA takedowns. They're a different system these hosters bend to that acts outside of it. By being more liberal in what gets shut down, they comply with DMCA which is much more onerous on what is required to shut things down. In fact, if this was really the DMCA process, people would have legal standing to go after the accusers via Section 512. Further, I'm also pretty sure you don't have to take things down right away. You do have time to investigate the alleged violation and decide whether you are in the right. Basically, all these players are hiding behind systems they put in place so they wouldn't come close to DMCA issues or have to pay anyone to investigate notices. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37986095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37986095
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  Has anyone managed to prove that an email address is not "reasonably sufficient to permit the service provider to contact the complaining party"? I doubt it. I expect that Shopify doubts it, too.
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    The law itself is explicit, no one needs to prove what the word "and" means. > such as an address, telephone number and email address
    - organsnyder 3y ago
      In this context, I think "and" could be reasonably argued to mean either "and" or "or". And given that the purpose of the contact information is "Information reasonably sufficient to permit the service provider to contact the complaining party" and not for identity verification, I'd guess that no company is willing to go to court to test this.
      - mvdtnz 3y ago
        And means and. Arguing that and means or is an interesting strategy I suppose but and means and.
        organsnyder 3y ago
        But is "and" being used to form a set of acceptable forms of identification (any of which would be sufficient), or is it joining the forms of identification together as all being required?
        thomastjeffery 3y ago
        It's joining them all together, but the whole thing is presented as an example. Any avenue that provides the ability to contact presumably meets that standard. If Shopify were to alter their contact info requirement, it would clearly be with a different goal in mind than the one laid out in that sentence. That's assuming of course, that the current requirements have actually led to communication.
        organsnyder 3y ago
        Coming back to add, I think the following sentences have identical meanings: "Acceptable forms of identification include driver's license, passport, and birth certificate." "Acceptable forms of identification include driver's license, passport, or birth certificate."
    - callalex 3y ago
      This is currently being debated in the highest court of the USA, right now as we speak. It’s pretty dumb and absurd to us techies but apparently it’s not a settled matter in law. https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/supreme-court-first-step-act-and-or-20231020.html https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/supreme-court-first-step-ac...

jmholla 3y ago

As I learned from this comment [0], that kind of is a requirement. Section 512 requires a notice contain: > Information reasonably sufficient to permit the service provider to contact the complaining party, such as an address, telephone number and email address I think another poster hit the nail on the head, when they said (and I'm paraphrasing), these aren't real DMCA takedowns. They're a different system these hosters bend to that acts outside of it. By being more liberal in what gets shut down, they comply with DMCA which is much more onerous on what is required to shut things down. In fact, if this was really the DMCA process, people would have legal standing to go after the accusers via Section 512. Further, I'm also pretty sure you don't have to take things down right away. You do have time to investigate the alleged violation and decide whether you are in the right. Basically, all these players are hiding behind systems they put in place so they wouldn't come close to DMCA issues or have to pay anyone to investigate notices. [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37986095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37986095

thomastjeffery 3y ago
Has anyone managed to prove that an email address is not "reasonably sufficient to permit the service provider to contact the complaining party"? I doubt it. I expect that Shopify doubts it, too.
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  The law itself is explicit, no one needs to prove what the word "and" means. > such as an address, telephone number and email address
  - organsnyder 3y ago
    In this context, I think "and" could be reasonably argued to mean either "and" or "or". And given that the purpose of the contact information is "Information reasonably sufficient to permit the service provider to contact the complaining party" and not for identity verification, I'd guess that no company is willing to go to court to test this.
    - mvdtnz 3y ago
      And means and. Arguing that and means or is an interesting strategy I suppose but and means and.
      - organsnyder 3y ago
        But is "and" being used to form a set of acceptable forms of identification (any of which would be sufficient), or is it joining the forms of identification together as all being required?
        thomastjeffery 3y ago
        It's joining them all together, but the whole thing is presented as an example. Any avenue that provides the ability to contact presumably meets that standard. If Shopify were to alter their contact info requirement, it would clearly be with a different goal in mind than the one laid out in that sentence. That's assuming of course, that the current requirements have actually led to communication.
      - organsnyder 3y ago
        Coming back to add, I think the following sentences have identical meanings: "Acceptable forms of identification include driver's license, passport, and birth certificate." "Acceptable forms of identification include driver's license, passport, or birth certificate."
  - callalex 3y ago
    This is currently being debated in the highest court of the USA, right now as we speak. It’s pretty dumb and absurd to us techies but apparently it’s not a settled matter in law. https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/supreme-court-first-step-act-and-or-20231020.html https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/supreme-court-first-step-ac...