5 ms·

If thats the only issue, may I suggest taking over the said companies then? Transform them into worker-cooperatives as the next step, so that people take pride

If thats the only issue, may I suggest taking over the said companies then? Transform them into worker-cooperatives as the next step, so that people take pride in what they create, for now they own the full produce of their labour.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Companies exist because we collectively allow them to. There is nothing special about a company, like fiat and wealth in general they are a shared delusion. If the rules aren't working to encourage the desired collective outcome, the rules can change.
- derelicta 3y ago
  Fully agree
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  Pretty sure there will be no agreement on what the desired collective outcome should be. The better avenue might be to inquire if really innovation of the corporate form is done - there has be strikingly little progress over the last few hundred years (and perhaps longer if we don't look to closely).
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Enacted legislation is the agreement. Strongly agree with your second statement.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      To enact legislation you need some sort of agreement (other than in autocracies) - I think that will be tough to get in quite a few places.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Fully agree. Lifetimes of work ahead.
notahacker 3y ago
If the government is taxing firms on manpower at levels intended on discouraging firms from actually using manpower, employees are going to have an even bigger problem funding the takeover of the firm than usual...
- derelicta 3y ago
  Oh no, I meant nationalising companies instead of simply trying to rely on taxes to solve whatever issues you need to get solved. Gotta attack the root causes instead of the mere symptoms.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    With very few examples, that route didn't work out well much, and in way the "successful" national or state sponsored enterprises where not necessarily nice. That isn't to say public utilities cannot be successful, but starting them by trying to modify something existing instead of devolved (where applicable) and bespoke entities that don't hold the power of the state as such might be a nicer way.
    - derelicta 3y ago
      > With very few example that route didn't work out well much, and in way the "successful" national or state sponsored enterprises where not necessarily nice. Republics come and go, it doesnt mean democracy in itself is a failure. All I am advocating for is the extension of our democratic norms to the economic and production apparatus.
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        Not sure I understand your connection between nationalized corporations/SEEs and republics. We do have a fair amount of countries with more than just shareholder representations in boards, for example. That said, assuming that just extending democratic norms (TBD) into corporations will help - not sold, why would large and potentially uninformed decision making help?
cscurmudgeon 3y ago
This has been tried and has always been 110% successful everywhere it has been tried /s. You do realize what you are proposing is 100% legal today but for some reason doesn't work out well.
- derelicta 3y ago
  It would have been (and would be) certainly more successful if foreign powers didnt try to disrupt them. But it's only fair I guess. After all, absolute monarchies saught to disrupt newly born republics around them, as to prevent nasty ideas to spread to peasants.
  - cscurmudgeon 3y ago
    > It would have been (and would be) certainly more successful if foreign powers didnt try to disrupt them Ah the same old excuses Why aren't they successful in the US today or USSR previously? Or North Korea or China today? You do realize even China's top companies are not cooperatives.
    - derelicta 3y ago
      Ever heard of the alphabet agencies?
      - boeingUH60 3y ago
        Wow, I guess the CIA is now disrupting co-ops after getting bored of toppling countries..
  - Nasrudith 3y ago
    There is no getting around this. If a system of government cannot withstand foreign powers it is flat out a /bad system for a government/, no matter how well it works/could work at a smaller scale or different context. Corporations may work well economically but there is a reason that among all of the desperate reform attempts nobody decided to incorporate an entire nation and make it publicly traded.
psychlops 3y ago
I think that would quickly degenerate into whomever could work the least and also maximize profits. Also, not everyone is creating something in which they can take pride. Most jobs are just jobs for money to pay for things that people really want...like more free time.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

Companies exist because we collectively allow them to. There is nothing special about a company, like fiat and wealth in general they are a shared delusion. If the rules aren't working to encourage the desired collective outcome, the rules can change.

derelicta 3y ago
Fully agree
RandomLensman 3y ago
Pretty sure there will be no agreement on what the desired collective outcome should be. The better avenue might be to inquire if really innovation of the corporate form is done - there has be strikingly little progress over the last few hundred years (and perhaps longer if we don't look to closely).
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Enacted legislation is the agreement. Strongly agree with your second statement.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    To enact legislation you need some sort of agreement (other than in autocracies) - I think that will be tough to get in quite a few places.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Fully agree. Lifetimes of work ahead.

notahacker 3y ago

If the government is taxing firms on manpower at levels intended on discouraging firms from actually using manpower, employees are going to have an even bigger problem funding the takeover of the firm than usual...

derelicta 3y ago
Oh no, I meant nationalising companies instead of simply trying to rely on taxes to solve whatever issues you need to get solved. Gotta attack the root causes instead of the mere symptoms.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  With very few examples, that route didn't work out well much, and in way the "successful" national or state sponsored enterprises where not necessarily nice. That isn't to say public utilities cannot be successful, but starting them by trying to modify something existing instead of devolved (where applicable) and bespoke entities that don't hold the power of the state as such might be a nicer way.
  - derelicta 3y ago
    > With very few example that route didn't work out well much, and in way the "successful" national or state sponsored enterprises where not necessarily nice. Republics come and go, it doesnt mean democracy in itself is a failure. All I am advocating for is the extension of our democratic norms to the economic and production apparatus.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Not sure I understand your connection between nationalized corporations/SEEs and republics. We do have a fair amount of countries with more than just shareholder representations in boards, for example. That said, assuming that just extending democratic norms (TBD) into corporations will help - not sold, why would large and potentially uninformed decision making help?

cscurmudgeon 3y ago

This has been tried and has always been 110% successful everywhere it has been tried /s. You do realize what you are proposing is 100% legal today but for some reason doesn't work out well.

derelicta 3y ago
It would have been (and would be) certainly more successful if foreign powers didnt try to disrupt them. But it's only fair I guess. After all, absolute monarchies saught to disrupt newly born republics around them, as to prevent nasty ideas to spread to peasants.
- cscurmudgeon 3y ago
  > It would have been (and would be) certainly more successful if foreign powers didnt try to disrupt them Ah the same old excuses Why aren't they successful in the US today or USSR previously? Or North Korea or China today? You do realize even China's top companies are not cooperatives.
  - derelicta 3y ago
    Ever heard of the alphabet agencies?
    - boeingUH60 3y ago
      Wow, I guess the CIA is now disrupting co-ops after getting bored of toppling countries..
- Nasrudith 3y ago
  There is no getting around this. If a system of government cannot withstand foreign powers it is flat out a /bad system for a government/, no matter how well it works/could work at a smaller scale or different context. Corporations may work well economically but there is a reason that among all of the desperate reform attempts nobody decided to incorporate an entire nation and make it publicly traded.

psychlops 3y ago

I think that would quickly degenerate into whomever could work the least and also maximize profits. Also, not everyone is creating something in which they can take pride. Most jobs are just jobs for money to pay for things that people really want...like more free time.