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China has an uncanning ability to shot herself in the knee. Best example would be the fleed of Zheng He. "He was buried at sea, and the fleet turned back to Ch

China has an uncanning ability to shot herself in the knee. Best example would be the fleed of Zheng He. "He was buried at sea, and the fleet turned back to China. Soon after, the emperor, supported by Confucian officials, ordered the ships to be burned and outlawed most maritime trade. In what was a purely political move, all official records of the voyages were systematically destroyed." This fleet was light-years ahead of what Columbus had available. But it was Europe who conquered the world and colonized the so called new world, not China.

emptyfile 3y ago
[dead]
mojo74 3y ago
For those interested: https://www.amazon.co.uk/1421-Year-China-Discovered-World-ebook/dp/B0091R30MS https://www.amazon.co.uk/1421-Year-China-Discovered-World-eb...
- ranting-moth 3y ago
  But keep in mind: "His book 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, is a work of sheer fiction presented as revisionist history. Not a single document or artifact has been found to support his new claims on the supposed Ming naval expeditions beyond Africa." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies#Criticism
  - Beijinger 3y ago
    I had a look into his book. It is not written very scientifically. From a review: "A true academic work would have been far more careful to distinguish between what is hard evidence and what is inference, assumption, and hypothesis." But it is a fact that America was known and had settlements before Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows
    - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
      Known by Europeans; it's been "known" / inhabited for at least 10.000 years. As far as I'm aware there's no records of other major players visiting / "discovering" it though besides the Norse.
      - coldtea 3y ago
        Where do you think the Native Americans came from? They are not exactly descendants of the Norse.
      - benxh 3y ago
        It was known by Polynesians for at least 1000 years before Columbus. See sweet potatoes.
Trow83949 3y ago
[flagged]
- Beijinger 3y ago
  Many South Americans seem to have died, unfortunately, from diseases. "Today we think of the Amazon as a pristine rainforest, sparsely populated by indigenous communities. But in records from the 1500s, Spanish colonizers describe a densely populated region, crisscrossed by canals and sunken roads and dotted with bustling, fortified towns. Unfortunately, fortification couldn’t protect the towns’ inhabitants against European diseases, which devastated South American indigenous populations and left the fortified villages abandoned." https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/03/network-of-fortified-towns-indicates-amazon-was-once-heavily-populated/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/03/network-of-fortified... "Some 5 million people may have lived in the Amazon region in AD 1500, divided between dense coastal settlements, such as that at Marajó, and inland dwellers. By 1900, the population had fallen to 1 million and by the early 1980s it was less than 200,000."
  - stavros 3y ago
    Interesting how introducing new pathogens works. Does anyone know why the opposite didn't happen? Why didn't the European colonizers die to American diseases?
    - voldacar 3y ago
      Syphilis may have originated in the Americas.
    - x3n0ph3n3 3y ago
      Many of the most deadly pathogens to indigenous Americans were born from livestock or frequent cross-exposure between different populations spanning Europe and Asia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_ep...
    - iteria 3y ago
coldtea 3y ago
I'd rather laud them for it, than lament how they didn't become the disgusting colonizers the European colonial powers became...
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  "how they didn't become the disgusting colonizers the European colonial powers became..." China occupied and absorbed a lot of nearby nations during its existence. 4000 years ago, what passed for China was much smaller than today's PRC territory. The fact that the Chinese (like the Russians) expanded on land instead of sailing towards their colonies on ships shouldn't play a role in labeling their activity as fundamentally colonial. Even now they are trying to displace the Tibetans from Lhasa, with only the low atmospheric pressure (which causes health problems to people stemming from lowlands) standing in their way.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    >China occupied and absorbed a lot of nearby nations during its existence. 4000 years ago, what passed for China was much smaller than today's PRC territory. The fact that the Chinese (like the Russians) expanded on land instead of sailing towards their colonies on ships shouldn't play a role in labeling their activity as fundamentally colonial. Oh, yes it does. Very much so. All nations fight with their neighoring nations, did so back in the millenia old past, back in the day, and still do today: they have disputes, they go to war, they sometimes merge, and so on. Even Italy and Germany, for example, was just a bunch of smaller regions, not long ago (19th century), and the annexations, neighbor fighting, and disputes in Europe continue to this day. Not all nations became colonizers though, war and annexation of some neighborhood land is not "colonization", and it's a handful of European countries that did so in the 19th and 20th century - while presenting themselves as beacons for freedom and englightenment. Not to mention, they also did it to China itself.
    - inglor_cz 3y ago
      "Not all nations became colonizers though, war and annexation of some neighborhood land is not "colonization"." I happen to think otherwise, being from a nation that was targeted by both German and Russian imperialism. Whether the invaders roll in in chariots, tanks or ships is an irrelevant technical detail for me. The goal is the same, domination over somebody weaker than you, usually supported by resettlements of foreigners to your territory. Ask, e.g. the Baltic nations whether what Stalin did to them was not "colonialism". The USSR in general engaged in forced russification of everyone.
ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago
> But it was Europe who conquered the world and colonized the so called new world, not China. A Chinese emperor once famously said to the British: “Our celestial empire possesses all things in abundance and lacks no product within its borders. There is therefore no need to import the manufactures of barbarians in exchange for our own products.”[1] Old civilizations are deeply connected to their geography, and once they settle down in a fertile area, they generally don't feel the need to colonize or fight people beyond their immediate neighbourhood. Barring a couple of exceptions, the Chinese and Indian experiences are very similar. The only reason Europeans went out on their ships was to find a sea route to India after their traditional routes were blocked by the Turks and the Arabs. [1] The Second Opium War (https://origins.osu.edu/read/second-opium-war https://origins.osu.edu/read/second-opium-war)
- inglor_cz 3y ago
  A small comment: the cited sentence predates the Opium Wars by many decades and comes from a reply to a failed British diplomatic mission (Macartney mission). Though the events are certainly loosely connected.
  - Beijinger 3y ago
    “Our celestial empire possesses all things in abundance and lacks no product within its borders. There is therefore no need to import the manufactures of barbarians in exchange for our own products.” Yes. And it became very clear to them, there was something they SHOULD have bought. Military Technology!

emptyfile 3y ago

[dead]

mojo74 3y ago

For those interested: https://www.amazon.co.uk/1421-Year-China-Discovered-World-ebook/dp/B0091R30MS https://www.amazon.co.uk/1421-Year-China-Discovered-World-eb...

ranting-moth 3y ago
But keep in mind: "His book 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, is a work of sheer fiction presented as revisionist history. Not a single document or artifact has been found to support his new claims on the supposed Ming naval expeditions beyond Africa." -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Menzies#Criticism
- Beijinger 3y ago
  I had a look into his book. It is not written very scientifically. From a review: "A true academic work would have been far more careful to distinguish between what is hard evidence and what is inference, assumption, and hypothesis." But it is a fact that America was known and had settlements before Columbus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%27Anse_aux_Meadows
  - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
    Known by Europeans; it's been "known" / inhabited for at least 10.000 years. As far as I'm aware there's no records of other major players visiting / "discovering" it though besides the Norse.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Where do you think the Native Americans came from? They are not exactly descendants of the Norse.
    - benxh 3y ago
      It was known by Polynesians for at least 1000 years before Columbus. See sweet potatoes.

Trow83949 3y ago

[flagged]

Beijinger 3y ago
Many South Americans seem to have died, unfortunately, from diseases. "Today we think of the Amazon as a pristine rainforest, sparsely populated by indigenous communities. But in records from the 1500s, Spanish colonizers describe a densely populated region, crisscrossed by canals and sunken roads and dotted with bustling, fortified towns. Unfortunately, fortification couldn’t protect the towns’ inhabitants against European diseases, which devastated South American indigenous populations and left the fortified villages abandoned." https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/03/network-of-fortified-towns-indicates-amazon-was-once-heavily-populated/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2018/03/network-of-fortified... "Some 5 million people may have lived in the Amazon region in AD 1500, divided between dense coastal settlements, such as that at Marajó, and inland dwellers. By 1900, the population had fallen to 1 million and by the early 1980s it was less than 200,000."
- stavros 3y ago
  Interesting how introducing new pathogens works. Does anyone know why the opposite didn't happen? Why didn't the European colonizers die to American diseases?
  - voldacar 3y ago
    Syphilis may have originated in the Americas.
  - x3n0ph3n3 3y ago
    Many of the most deadly pathogens to indigenous Americans were born from livestock or frequent cross-exposure between different populations spanning Europe and Asia. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_ep...
  - iteria 3y ago

coldtea 3y ago

I'd rather laud them for it, than lament how they didn't become the disgusting colonizers the European colonial powers became...

inglor_cz 3y ago
"how they didn't become the disgusting colonizers the European colonial powers became..." China occupied and absorbed a lot of nearby nations during its existence. 4000 years ago, what passed for China was much smaller than today's PRC territory. The fact that the Chinese (like the Russians) expanded on land instead of sailing towards their colonies on ships shouldn't play a role in labeling their activity as fundamentally colonial. Even now they are trying to displace the Tibetans from Lhasa, with only the low atmospheric pressure (which causes health problems to people stemming from lowlands) standing in their way.
- coldtea 3y ago
  >China occupied and absorbed a lot of nearby nations during its existence. 4000 years ago, what passed for China was much smaller than today's PRC territory. The fact that the Chinese (like the Russians) expanded on land instead of sailing towards their colonies on ships shouldn't play a role in labeling their activity as fundamentally colonial. Oh, yes it does. Very much so. All nations fight with their neighoring nations, did so back in the millenia old past, back in the day, and still do today: they have disputes, they go to war, they sometimes merge, and so on. Even Italy and Germany, for example, was just a bunch of smaller regions, not long ago (19th century), and the annexations, neighbor fighting, and disputes in Europe continue to this day. Not all nations became colonizers though, war and annexation of some neighborhood land is not "colonization", and it's a handful of European countries that did so in the 19th and 20th century - while presenting themselves as beacons for freedom and englightenment. Not to mention, they also did it to China itself.
  - inglor_cz 3y ago
    "Not all nations became colonizers though, war and annexation of some neighborhood land is not "colonization"." I happen to think otherwise, being from a nation that was targeted by both German and Russian imperialism. Whether the invaders roll in in chariots, tanks or ships is an irrelevant technical detail for me. The goal is the same, domination over somebody weaker than you, usually supported by resettlements of foreigners to your territory. Ask, e.g. the Baltic nations whether what Stalin did to them was not "colonialism". The USSR in general engaged in forced russification of everyone.

ta_vf7xjd34cc 3y ago

> But it was Europe who conquered the world and colonized the so called new world, not China. A Chinese emperor once famously said to the British: “Our celestial empire possesses all things in abundance and lacks no product within its borders. There is therefore no need to import the manufactures of barbarians in exchange for our own products.”[1] Old civilizations are deeply connected to their geography, and once they settle down in a fertile area, they generally don't feel the need to colonize or fight people beyond their immediate neighbourhood. Barring a couple of exceptions, the Chinese and Indian experiences are very similar. The only reason Europeans went out on their ships was to find a sea route to India after their traditional routes were blocked by the Turks and the Arabs. [1] The Second Opium War (https://origins.osu.edu/read/second-opium-war https://origins.osu.edu/read/second-opium-war)

inglor_cz 3y ago
A small comment: the cited sentence predates the Opium Wars by many decades and comes from a reply to a failed British diplomatic mission (Macartney mission). Though the events are certainly loosely connected.
- Beijinger 3y ago
  “Our celestial empire possesses all things in abundance and lacks no product within its borders. There is therefore no need to import the manufactures of barbarians in exchange for our own products.” Yes. And it became very clear to them, there was something they SHOULD have bought. Military Technology!