4 ms·

Taxation is not "taking things from people". Everyone benefits from the public services Taxes fund, even the super wealthy.

f233f2 3y ago
If we are to tax people because they benefit from public services, then poor people should be taxed more than rich people since they benefit from those services more.
- badcppdev 3y ago
  No rich people benefit more. They rely on the rule of law in a nation state to protect their assets and provide a supply of goods and services. And they don't pay much for it (in percentage terms definitely).
  - f233f2 3y ago
    Poor people cause much, much, much more work to law enforcement and the judicial system than rich people.
    - ubercow13 3y ago
      That too is benefitting rich people more than poor.
      - f233f2 3y ago
        Rich people can hire private security. Poor people can't. In terms of raw numbers, law enforcement's job is to protect poor people from other poor people.
    - tgaj 3y ago
      Yeah, because white collar crimes do not exist and do not cost billions of dolars. Sorry for being sarcastic but seriously...
    - wasmitnetzen 3y ago
      You can easily be poor without a working government, being rich without a working police and judicial system is much harder.
  - michpoch 3y ago
    > They rely on the rule of law in a nation state to protect their assets and provide a supply of goods and services. Which as a result let their companies prosper and that benefits the employees. > And they don't pay much for it Not true > (in percentage terms definitely). Why would it matter?
    - badcppdev 3y ago
      "Why would it matter?". There are many historical and current day examples of the problems in societies with very high wealth inequality. I don't want to live in a dystopia with _untouchable_ hyper wealth individuals so I believe that governments should make it very hard to stay a billionaire and virtually impossible for people to inherit that level of generational wealth from their family. I am very keen for levels of taxation (and the closing of all the loopholes) that would force billionaires to liquidate significant percentages of their assets to pay taxes as I think it will encourage them to work a bit harder. After all if they managed to become a billionaire once they must be very clever, right?
      - michpoch 3y ago
        > I am very keen for levels of taxation (and the closing of all the loopholes) that would force billionaires to liquidate significant percentages of their assets to pay taxes as I think it will encourage them to work a bit harder. After all if they managed to become a billionaire once they must be very clever, right? Even almost all their "assets" are stocks in the companies they created? Would the idea be that the founders of these companies should lose control over them?
        badcppdev 3y ago
        They would only lose control if they were incompetent and it was just luck that put them in control in the first place. The suggested wealth tax is 2%. I have no concerns that a billionaire capable of creating a multi billion dollar business would have any issues raising $20 million per year to sort out their tax bill. Are there any billionaires you're worried about in particular?
- kleene_op 3y ago
  Rich people benefit from all the poor people benefiting from public services. No Uber drivers without public roads.
  - f233f2 3y ago
    Uber drivers are poor people.
    - kleene_op 3y ago
      "No Uber drivers to exploit", is what I meant to say.
- altacc 3y ago
  No, governments are not piggy banks, you don't get out what you put in. People pay taxes for the general betterment of the country and everyone benefits from a stable country with a healthy population, which are things you can't really place a monetary value on.
inglor_cz 3y ago
"Everyone benefits from the public services Taxes fund, even the super wealthy." That is somewhat debatable. Not all taxes go to universally popular public services. Special interest lobbies are strong everywhere, so you always end up funding a bunch of rent seekers. This is the eternal problem of the public purse, not that different between modern democracies and eunuchs of the Ming dynasty: someone's else's money gets stolen a lot.
dappermanneke 3y ago
I live in one of the most highly taxed countries on planet earth and what my taxes mostly do is go from my pocket to either an unsustainable pay-as-you-go defined benefit pensions regime that nobody wants to reform into a market based defined contribution regime since that would make apparent the underlying weakness of our economy or the money goes to structurally poor regions where it disappears forever because nobody wants to take hard measures to reform governance in those regions. sorry to break your bubble but high taxation is not inherently good or bad, depends wholly on the governance, and the governance tends to the bad
- badcppdev 3y ago
  Please name the country? It makes the discussion impossible when you vaguely complain about something with no links or ability for anyone to respond.
  - anonzzzies 3y ago
    Going by the username, Belgium? Edit: note that many countries would fit the description; at least I know the Flemish are complaining their taxes burning up for nothing in Wallonia and Madrid/Barcelona complaining their taxes disappearing for nothing in Andalusia etc, West Germany in East Germany, but I guess every country has this issue at least at some level.
  - galbar 3y ago
    When I read their comment, I immediately thought of Spain. But they may have meant a different country.
  - dappermanneke 3y ago
    I’m sorry I don’t want to dox myself nor spend my time arguing with people who just googled “how does X country benefits system work” on HN I think you can easily see from the replies to my comment however that this sentiment is widely shared across europe, which is indeed reflective of the fact that our economic malaise and lack of policy to address it is an EU wide phenomenon
okokwhatever 3y ago
I don't know where do you life but believe me if I tell you that your statement does not work if you're out of the US and EU.
archi42 3y ago
s/even the super wealthy/especially the super wealthy/ The wealth of the wealthy depend a lot on the infrastructure build from tax money. E.g. they don't build nation-scale road networks, but would make much less profit if these were absent.
robertlagrant 3y ago
> Taxation is not "taking things from people". Everyone benefits from the public services Taxes fund, even the super wealthy. Of course it's taking things from people. You might say that it's worth it, but that's nothing to do with the mechanism. Having worked with the public sector a bit, it's incredible how much money is constantly wasted. You see public services and think all the money is spent efficiently on them, when it's just constantly spent on everything. £20k meetings to decide whether or not to spend £10k. Making sure your budget is always fully spent so you can get the same next year, even if you don't need it now and won't need it next year. Every day in every department in every government, multiple people's whole lifetime of taxation is wasted. The mentality is totally different when your customers go to jail for not paying you.
- tgaj 3y ago
  Oh man, you should see how much money is wasted in private corporations. How many start-ups take millions of dollars and deliver nothing. There always be some percentage of money lost, like there always be bugs in our software.
  - xyzzy123 3y ago
    There's a big difference though; startups are fueled by private money, from people who knew the risks. Public sector waste comes out of all our pockets and could have been allocated to welfare, teacher salaries or infrastructure.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Or it could've just not come out of our pockets.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    They are spending their own money. They aren't wasting other people's hard-earned money. VCs and other funders know the risks and take them anyway. That's why upping taxation to those who take big risks and they pay off is bad - they'll just stop taking risks and things will stop improving.

f233f2 3y ago

If we are to tax people because they benefit from public services, then poor people should be taxed more than rich people since they benefit from those services more.

badcppdev 3y ago
No rich people benefit more. They rely on the rule of law in a nation state to protect their assets and provide a supply of goods and services. And they don't pay much for it (in percentage terms definitely).
- f233f2 3y ago
  Poor people cause much, much, much more work to law enforcement and the judicial system than rich people.
  - ubercow13 3y ago
    That too is benefitting rich people more than poor.
    - f233f2 3y ago
      Rich people can hire private security. Poor people can't. In terms of raw numbers, law enforcement's job is to protect poor people from other poor people.
  - tgaj 3y ago
    Yeah, because white collar crimes do not exist and do not cost billions of dolars. Sorry for being sarcastic but seriously...
  - wasmitnetzen 3y ago
    You can easily be poor without a working government, being rich without a working police and judicial system is much harder.
- michpoch 3y ago
  > They rely on the rule of law in a nation state to protect their assets and provide a supply of goods and services. Which as a result let their companies prosper and that benefits the employees. > And they don't pay much for it Not true > (in percentage terms definitely). Why would it matter?
  - badcppdev 3y ago
    "Why would it matter?". There are many historical and current day examples of the problems in societies with very high wealth inequality. I don't want to live in a dystopia with _untouchable_ hyper wealth individuals so I believe that governments should make it very hard to stay a billionaire and virtually impossible for people to inherit that level of generational wealth from their family. I am very keen for levels of taxation (and the closing of all the loopholes) that would force billionaires to liquidate significant percentages of their assets to pay taxes as I think it will encourage them to work a bit harder. After all if they managed to become a billionaire once they must be very clever, right?
    - michpoch 3y ago
      > I am very keen for levels of taxation (and the closing of all the loopholes) that would force billionaires to liquidate significant percentages of their assets to pay taxes as I think it will encourage them to work a bit harder. After all if they managed to become a billionaire once they must be very clever, right? Even almost all their "assets" are stocks in the companies they created? Would the idea be that the founders of these companies should lose control over them?
      - badcppdev 3y ago
        They would only lose control if they were incompetent and it was just luck that put them in control in the first place. The suggested wealth tax is 2%. I have no concerns that a billionaire capable of creating a multi billion dollar business would have any issues raising $20 million per year to sort out their tax bill. Are there any billionaires you're worried about in particular?
kleene_op 3y ago
Rich people benefit from all the poor people benefiting from public services. No Uber drivers without public roads.
- f233f2 3y ago
  Uber drivers are poor people.
  - kleene_op 3y ago
    "No Uber drivers to exploit", is what I meant to say.
altacc 3y ago
No, governments are not piggy banks, you don't get out what you put in. People pay taxes for the general betterment of the country and everyone benefits from a stable country with a healthy population, which are things you can't really place a monetary value on.

inglor_cz 3y ago

"Everyone benefits from the public services Taxes fund, even the super wealthy." That is somewhat debatable. Not all taxes go to universally popular public services. Special interest lobbies are strong everywhere, so you always end up funding a bunch of rent seekers. This is the eternal problem of the public purse, not that different between modern democracies and eunuchs of the Ming dynasty: someone's else's money gets stolen a lot.

dappermanneke 3y ago

I live in one of the most highly taxed countries on planet earth and what my taxes mostly do is go from my pocket to either an unsustainable pay-as-you-go defined benefit pensions regime that nobody wants to reform into a market based defined contribution regime since that would make apparent the underlying weakness of our economy or the money goes to structurally poor regions where it disappears forever because nobody wants to take hard measures to reform governance in those regions. sorry to break your bubble but high taxation is not inherently good or bad, depends wholly on the governance, and the governance tends to the bad

badcppdev 3y ago
Please name the country? It makes the discussion impossible when you vaguely complain about something with no links or ability for anyone to respond.
- anonzzzies 3y ago
  Going by the username, Belgium? Edit: note that many countries would fit the description; at least I know the Flemish are complaining their taxes burning up for nothing in Wallonia and Madrid/Barcelona complaining their taxes disappearing for nothing in Andalusia etc, West Germany in East Germany, but I guess every country has this issue at least at some level.
- galbar 3y ago
  When I read their comment, I immediately thought of Spain. But they may have meant a different country.
- dappermanneke 3y ago
  I’m sorry I don’t want to dox myself nor spend my time arguing with people who just googled “how does X country benefits system work” on HN I think you can easily see from the replies to my comment however that this sentiment is widely shared across europe, which is indeed reflective of the fact that our economic malaise and lack of policy to address it is an EU wide phenomenon

okokwhatever 3y ago

I don't know where do you life but believe me if I tell you that your statement does not work if you're out of the US and EU.

archi42 3y ago

s/even the super wealthy/especially the super wealthy/ The wealth of the wealthy depend a lot on the infrastructure build from tax money. E.g. they don't build nation-scale road networks, but would make much less profit if these were absent.

robertlagrant 3y ago

> Taxation is not "taking things from people". Everyone benefits from the public services Taxes fund, even the super wealthy. Of course it's taking things from people. You might say that it's worth it, but that's nothing to do with the mechanism. Having worked with the public sector a bit, it's incredible how much money is constantly wasted. You see public services and think all the money is spent efficiently on them, when it's just constantly spent on everything. £20k meetings to decide whether or not to spend £10k. Making sure your budget is always fully spent so you can get the same next year, even if you don't need it now and won't need it next year. Every day in every department in every government, multiple people's whole lifetime of taxation is wasted. The mentality is totally different when your customers go to jail for not paying you.

tgaj 3y ago
Oh man, you should see how much money is wasted in private corporations. How many start-ups take millions of dollars and deliver nothing. There always be some percentage of money lost, like there always be bugs in our software.
- xyzzy123 3y ago
  There's a big difference though; startups are fueled by private money, from people who knew the risks. Public sector waste comes out of all our pockets and could have been allocated to welfare, teacher salaries or infrastructure.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Or it could've just not come out of our pockets.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  They are spending their own money. They aren't wasting other people's hard-earned money. VCs and other funders know the risks and take them anyway. That's why upping taxation to those who take big risks and they pay off is bad - they'll just stop taking risks and things will stop improving.