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The problem is that your EV experience will differ dramatically on your way of sourcing energy. That starts with what you pay for electricity (e.g. 0.4€/100kWh

by fho 3y ago

The problem is that your EV experience will differ dramatically on your way of sourcing energy. That starts with what you pay for electricity (e.g. 0.4€/100kWh in Germany vs. 0.05€ in Denmark). But continues with how much CO2 is created. With the German energy mix, 1 kWh "produces" 0.434 kg of CO2 (tendency rising). Burning 1l of gasoline results in 2.37 kg. Comparing two cars: Tesla 3 (18 kWh / 100 km, 80-90% efficiency during charging): (18 kWh / (0.8 bis 0.9)) * (0.434kg / kwh) = 8.68 bis 9.765 kg (CO2 per 100km) Toyota Yaris Hybrid (with E10): 3.9 l * (2.37 - 0.126) kg/l = 8.75 kg (CO2 pro 100 km) Which is basically the same ball park. To be fair, Tesla 3 vs Yaris Hybrid is an apple to pears comparison. But the argument that can be made is for a cleaner energy mix and smaller cars.

pkulak 3y ago
That’s cool and all, but you’re assuming gasoline exists in pools, fully refined, under gas stations. Since you’ve priced in the entire lifecycle of every watt of electricity, now you need to run it again taking into account the mining, refining, and transport of oil. Refining is literally boiling the crude and collecting the bits that come off. Most folks think it’s about 6 kWh to rifine one gallon, who knows what for mining and transport. What’s fun about that number is that those 6 kWh would drive an EV about 18 miles. So, unless you have a reasonably efficient gas car, even if you never burned any of the gas you buy, and used it to fill swimming pools or something, you only come out even with an EV.
- fho 3y ago
  > Since you’ve priced in the entire lifecycle of every watt of electricity I didn't. That's the number without externalized CO2 costs. With those it's closer to 0.48 kg/kWh which comes out at 10kg CO2 per 100km. As I said above, I am not trying to argue against EVs. It's mostly that the German energy mix sucks. (We switched of all our nuclear plants some time ago and now rely on coal again ...) source: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/co2-emissionen-pro-kilowattstunde-strom-steigen https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/co2-emissionen-pro-kil...
mtwshngtn 3y ago
To be fair, you're comparing the amount of CO2 "produced" by the electricity generation of 1 kWh but your 2.37kg figure of CO2 from gasoline does not include CO2 generated from production of the gasoline in the first place, which would be necessary to do an apples-to-apples comparison (of just the "energy source generation/consumption" CO2) [0] [0]: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/oee/pdf/transportation/fuel-efficient-technologies/autosmart_factsheet_6_e.pdf https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/fi...
- fho 3y ago
  To be fairer: :-) 430g/kWh is without external costs too. Germany just has a very, very bad energy mix.
kybernetikos 3y ago
I pay extra for my electricity to guarantee 100% of my usage is matched by renewable electricity. I expect many other ev drivers do the same.
- pjc50 3y ago
  To what extent does this really increase production versus just shuffling it around off people who don't care?
  - kybernetikos 3y ago
    By paying more you create incentives to produce more.

by fho 3y ago

pkulak 3y ago

That’s cool and all, but you’re assuming gasoline exists in pools, fully refined, under gas stations. Since you’ve priced in the entire lifecycle of every watt of electricity, now you need to run it again taking into account the mining, refining, and transport of oil. Refining is literally boiling the crude and collecting the bits that come off. Most folks think it’s about 6 kWh to rifine one gallon, who knows what for mining and transport. What’s fun about that number is that those 6 kWh would drive an EV about 18 miles. So, unless you have a reasonably efficient gas car, even if you never burned any of the gas you buy, and used it to fill swimming pools or something, you only come out even with an EV.

fho 3y ago
> Since you’ve priced in the entire lifecycle of every watt of electricity I didn't. That's the number without externalized CO2 costs. With those it's closer to 0.48 kg/kWh which comes out at 10kg CO2 per 100km. As I said above, I am not trying to argue against EVs. It's mostly that the German energy mix sucks. (We switched of all our nuclear plants some time ago and now rely on coal again ...) source: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/co2-emissionen-pro-kilowattstunde-strom-steigen https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/co2-emissionen-pro-kil...

mtwshngtn 3y ago

To be fair, you're comparing the amount of CO2 "produced" by the electricity generation of 1 kWh but your 2.37kg figure of CO2 from gasoline does not include CO2 generated from production of the gasoline in the first place, which would be necessary to do an apples-to-apples comparison (of just the "energy source generation/consumption" CO2) [0] [0]: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/oee/pdf/transportation/fuel-efficient-technologies/autosmart_factsheet_6_e.pdf https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/fi...

fho 3y ago
To be fairer: :-) 430g/kWh is without external costs too. Germany just has a very, very bad energy mix.

kybernetikos 3y ago

I pay extra for my electricity to guarantee 100% of my usage is matched by renewable electricity. I expect many other ev drivers do the same.

pjc50 3y ago
To what extent does this really increase production versus just shuffling it around off people who don't care?
- kybernetikos 3y ago
  By paying more you create incentives to produce more.