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Personally I would like to see us go below countries like Afghanistan (4.0), Argentina (4.6), Kenya (5.3), Iran (2.4), Israel (1.9), Palestine (0.9), or India (

Personally I would like to see us go below countries like Afghanistan (4.0), Argentina (4.6), Kenya (5.3), Iran (2.4), Israel (1.9), Palestine (0.9), or India (2.9). And preferably as low as, for instance, Spain (0.6), or even Japan (0.2). Edit: Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intenti...

explaininjs 3y ago
Excuse me what? You’re claiming there are only 0.9 homicides per 100k people in Palestine? That’s so far from the truth I can’t begin to take you seriously.
- rthomas6 3y ago
  That's the number Wikipedia gives for 2021. It's sourced from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Maybe the data is self-reported and Palestine fudged the numbers? Maybe it's accurate for the time period and just surprising? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intenti...
  - jakear 3y ago
    At least 280 Palestinians were killed by Israelis in 2021. With a population of ~5,000,000, that alone accounts for 5.6 deaths per 100k lives. Here's a list of those killed: https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/2021deaths/ https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/2021deaths/. Pay special attention to all the women and children. This is not a country to we should aspire to match murder rates.
    - vxNsr 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - jakear 3y ago
        [flagged]
        vxNsr 3y ago
        [flagged]
        jakear 3y ago
        [flagged]
        vxNsr 3y ago
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        jakear 3y ago
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        vxNsr 3y ago
        More lies, I didn't say any of that... why are you fake quoting? Here's Golda's famous quote again, study it, maybe you'll change: “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” ― Golda Meir,
        dang 3y ago
        We've banned this account for egregiously violating HN's rules. No matter how right you are or feel you are, you can't post like this. It's abusive and destructive of the type of forum we're trying to preserve here. Moreover we warned you before. Of course I understand that this topic (though it was entirely off topic for this thread) is among the most sensitive and divisive of all, for deep reasons, and I'm sure that you have good reasons to feel the way you feel. But the site rules could not be clearer about such situations, you broke them extremely badly (and repeatedly) in this thread, and we obviously can't allow that if we want HN to survive for thoughtful, curious conversation. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
    - Jensson 3y ago
      War deaths aren't criminal homicides, they are a problem but a different kind of problem, not something related to the crime rate in a country.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - jakear 3y ago
        There was no war declared then. The actions were identical to Mexican immigrants coming over and going on murdering spees here. Would you not consider that an example of crime that should be accounted for? And the falseness of that distinction is exactly my point. Nobody watches their baby get murdered and says "Well at least it was at the hands of a government agent! My country is still a very safe place to live!". Yet if you were to believe those stats that's exactly what they're claiming: deaths at the hands of government agents "don't count" when considering the safety of an area.
- fomine3 3y ago
  "Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
  - explaininjs 3y ago
    How exactly would you strongman the claim that Palestine is a low crime area we should want to approximate?
    - fomine3 3y ago
      Just ignore Palestine from original argument
      - explaininjs 3y ago
        The purpose of the argument was to present areas we innately consider “dangerous” and try to pretend like they are in fact safer than America by secretly disregarding all the deaths that happen at the hands of government agents. But it is those very deaths that make us consider those areas dangerous. This isn’t exclusive to Palestine, but it is the most egregious example. This argument is disingenuous and should be called out at such. Murders committed by people wearing cute badges in their arm are still murders.
        rthomas6 3y ago
        I regret including Palestine and Afghanistan in my original comment. I didn't mean to be disingenuous. I should have included more countries like Argentina, Kenya, and India that aren't politically charged. My main point is that 5.5 should be seen as absurdly high for a first world country, and not just a little worse than usual.
        explaininjs 3y ago
        I wonder how the long tail of murders per “neighborhood” looks in those other countries. It’s well-known that in America the vast majority of murders happen in tiny areas. And if one were to look at only the predominant race in America, the murder rate would match the best of the examples you just listed (3.0, the same as racially-homogeneous India). That’s not to say that minority murder means less in any way, but on the contrary to question whether America records it to an extent other countries might not. I do not know if this is the case or not, and I don’t know how one might be able to tell. But I’ve personally been in slums of third world countries that the police would flat out refuse to answer calls to, and I can’t imagine anyone there was taking the time to report each death to the United Nations when even their own local police couldn’t give enough of a shit (/were too scared) to show up.
Mistletoe 3y ago
You know how you get there? You go from 6.8 to 5.5 first.

explaininjs 3y ago

Excuse me what? You’re claiming there are only 0.9 homicides per 100k people in Palestine? That’s so far from the truth I can’t begin to take you seriously.

rthomas6 3y ago
That's the number Wikipedia gives for 2021. It's sourced from the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Maybe the data is self-reported and Palestine fudged the numbers? Maybe it's accurate for the time period and just surprising? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intenti...
- jakear 3y ago
  At least 280 Palestinians were killed by Israelis in 2021. With a population of ~5,000,000, that alone accounts for 5.6 deaths per 100k lives. Here's a list of those killed: https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/2021deaths/ https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/2021deaths/. Pay special attention to all the women and children. This is not a country to we should aspire to match murder rates.
  - vxNsr 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - jakear 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - vxNsr 3y ago
        [flagged]
        jakear 3y ago
        [flagged]
        vxNsr 3y ago
        [flagged]
        jakear 3y ago
        [flagged]
        vxNsr 3y ago
        More lies, I didn't say any of that... why are you fake quoting? Here's Golda's famous quote again, study it, maybe you'll change: “When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.” ― Golda Meir,
        dang 3y ago
        We've banned this account for egregiously violating HN's rules. No matter how right you are or feel you are, you can't post like this. It's abusive and destructive of the type of forum we're trying to preserve here. Moreover we warned you before. Of course I understand that this topic (though it was entirely off topic for this thread) is among the most sensitive and divisive of all, for deep reasons, and I'm sure that you have good reasons to feel the way you feel. But the site rules could not be clearer about such situations, you broke them extremely badly (and repeatedly) in this thread, and we obviously can't allow that if we want HN to survive for thoughtful, curious conversation. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future. They're here: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
  - Jensson 3y ago
    War deaths aren't criminal homicides, they are a problem but a different kind of problem, not something related to the crime rate in a country.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - jakear 3y ago
      There was no war declared then. The actions were identical to Mexican immigrants coming over and going on murdering spees here. Would you not consider that an example of crime that should be accounted for? And the falseness of that distinction is exactly my point. Nobody watches their baby get murdered and says "Well at least it was at the hands of a government agent! My country is still a very safe place to live!". Yet if you were to believe those stats that's exactly what they're claiming: deaths at the hands of government agents "don't count" when considering the safety of an area.
fomine3 3y ago
"Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith."
- explaininjs 3y ago
  How exactly would you strongman the claim that Palestine is a low crime area we should want to approximate?
  - fomine3 3y ago
    Just ignore Palestine from original argument
    - explaininjs 3y ago
      The purpose of the argument was to present areas we innately consider “dangerous” and try to pretend like they are in fact safer than America by secretly disregarding all the deaths that happen at the hands of government agents. But it is those very deaths that make us consider those areas dangerous. This isn’t exclusive to Palestine, but it is the most egregious example. This argument is disingenuous and should be called out at such. Murders committed by people wearing cute badges in their arm are still murders.
      - rthomas6 3y ago
        I regret including Palestine and Afghanistan in my original comment. I didn't mean to be disingenuous. I should have included more countries like Argentina, Kenya, and India that aren't politically charged. My main point is that 5.5 should be seen as absurdly high for a first world country, and not just a little worse than usual.
        explaininjs 3y ago
        I wonder how the long tail of murders per “neighborhood” looks in those other countries. It’s well-known that in America the vast majority of murders happen in tiny areas. And if one were to look at only the predominant race in America, the murder rate would match the best of the examples you just listed (3.0, the same as racially-homogeneous India). That’s not to say that minority murder means less in any way, but on the contrary to question whether America records it to an extent other countries might not. I do not know if this is the case or not, and I don’t know how one might be able to tell. But I’ve personally been in slums of third world countries that the police would flat out refuse to answer calls to, and I can’t imagine anyone there was taking the time to report each death to the United Nations when even their own local police couldn’t give enough of a shit (/were too scared) to show up.

Mistletoe 3y ago

You know how you get there? You go from 6.8 to 5.5 first.