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>Wow, that's incredibly reductive. Asia has approx 4.7 billion people! Asian cultures are generally more collectivistic than individualistic compared to the We

>Wow, that's incredibly reductive. Asia has approx 4.7 billion people! Asian cultures are generally more collectivistic than individualistic compared to the West.

anon291 3y ago
The west used to be much more collectivist. Christianity as it's been practiced for most of history is a collective religion. The rise of individualism corresponds to the rise of atheism and agnosticism and 'nones' in the west.
- redserk 3y ago
  Are you able to back this up? American individualism has existed for multiple generations, well before the rise of acceptance for atheism/agnosticism/“Nones”.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Americans have always had an individualist streak, fueled by Protestant Christianity, the cultural influence of Appalachia, and cultural diversity. The communitarian parts of Christianity held that somewhat in check. But as even that falls away, america has become hyper-individualized and morality has become almost completely personalized.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > the cultural influence of Appalachia That's an incredible stretch. There are a number of other factors worth mentioning: - The philosophy of John Locke, who greatly influenced the founders - The US is a very new country, compared to those in Europe and Asia. The only preexisting culture was the Native Americans, and you (should) know what happened to them... - The US is a nation of immigrants who left (sometimes voluntarily, sometimes involuntarily) their previous countries and cultures. - The US is geographically very large and open. Even within the nation of immigrants, there was a huge amount of migration to populate "the west". - The US has a very weak central government, by design of the Constitution, and it never had a state church. There's no centralizing cultural force.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        > That's an incredible stretch. The culture of Appalachia—specifically, the Scots-Irish—has been tremendously influential in America: https://reason.com/2005/07/01/the-fighting-scots-irish-2 https://reason.com/2005/07/01/the-fighting-scots-irish-2. It is deeply wrapped up in frontier culture, interestingly because Scots-Irish were encouraged to migrate to that land to serve as a buffer against the Indians.
        diogenescynic 3y ago
        ‘Albion’s Seed’ explores this and it’s really fascinating. You can definitely see the imprint those groups left. This article is a good starter for explaining how the Puritan, Quaker, Cavalier, and Scots—Irish each shaped our cultural identity: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/04/books/review/joe-klein-explains-how-the-history-of-four-centuries-ago-still-shapes-american-culture-and-politics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/04/books/review/joe-klein-ex...
        lapcat 3y ago
        From the very link that you cite: "Webb's book, though well-written and often insightful, is more an exercise in ethnic self-mythologizing than an evenhanded attempt to judge the impact of the Scots-Irish and their culture on America."
        rayiner 3y ago
        The complete paragraph indicates a different tone: > But the Scots-Irish impact on American politics is more problematic than Webb would have us believe. The populist politics they pioneered doesn't necessarily produce the sort of values that sustain liberty. Indeed, the democratic impulse toward comfort and safety often undercuts self-reliance and individualism. Webb's book, though well-written and often insightful, is more an exercise in ethnic self-mythologizing than an evenhanded attempt to judge the impact of the Scots-Irish and their culture on America. My reading of the article is that the author agrees with Webb that "the Scots-Irish impact" on America was large. The point of disagreement is whether that influence was as positive as Webb says, or whether it was "more problematic than Webb would have us believe."
  - anon291 3y ago
    > American individualism has existed for multiple generations Can you back this up? Because a review of historic American literature would make our modern age of hyper-individualism 'self-help', etc, seem like a completely foreign culture.
    - hollerith 3y ago
      Societies tend towards an organizing principle, and liberty has been the organizing principle of the US since its founding no less than the interests of the German race was the organizing principle for the Third Reich and anti-capitalism was the organizing principle of the Soviet Union. (Democracy was seen by the founders as way to protect liberty more than liberty was seen as a way to protect democracy.) "Don't tread on me," was a slogan of the American revolution. Ditto, "give me liberty or give me death." For many decades, drug addiction raged in the US while heroin and cocaine remained legal because a Federal law against the free trade in these drugs was seen as an unconstitutional curtailment of the individual's liberty. The starting of a Federal income tax was likewise held up for decades on the same argument. Again, liberty has been the main organizing principle of the US since its founding, and I'd be a little surprised to learn that there are Americans with IQs above 110 that do not know that, but I guess some people are too busy to learn about history and politics.

>Wow, that's incredibly reductive. Asia has approx 4.7 billion people! Asian cultures are generally more collectivistic than individualistic compared to the West.

anon291 3y ago

The west used to be much more collectivist. Christianity as it's been practiced for most of history is a collective religion. The rise of individualism corresponds to the rise of atheism and agnosticism and 'nones' in the west.

redserk 3y ago
Are you able to back this up? American individualism has existed for multiple generations, well before the rise of acceptance for atheism/agnosticism/“Nones”.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Americans have always had an individualist streak, fueled by Protestant Christianity, the cultural influence of Appalachia, and cultural diversity. The communitarian parts of Christianity held that somewhat in check. But as even that falls away, america has become hyper-individualized and morality has become almost completely personalized.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > the cultural influence of Appalachia That's an incredible stretch. There are a number of other factors worth mentioning: - The philosophy of John Locke, who greatly influenced the founders - The US is a very new country, compared to those in Europe and Asia. The only preexisting culture was the Native Americans, and you (should) know what happened to them... - The US is a nation of immigrants who left (sometimes voluntarily, sometimes involuntarily) their previous countries and cultures. - The US is geographically very large and open. Even within the nation of immigrants, there was a huge amount of migration to populate "the west". - The US has a very weak central government, by design of the Constitution, and it never had a state church. There's no centralizing cultural force.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      > That's an incredible stretch. The culture of Appalachia—specifically, the Scots-Irish—has been tremendously influential in America: https://reason.com/2005/07/01/the-fighting-scots-irish-2 https://reason.com/2005/07/01/the-fighting-scots-irish-2. It is deeply wrapped up in frontier culture, interestingly because Scots-Irish were encouraged to migrate to that land to serve as a buffer against the Indians.
      - diogenescynic 3y ago
        ‘Albion’s Seed’ explores this and it’s really fascinating. You can definitely see the imprint those groups left. This article is a good starter for explaining how the Puritan, Quaker, Cavalier, and Scots—Irish each shaped our cultural identity: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/04/books/review/joe-klein-explains-how-the-history-of-four-centuries-ago-still-shapes-american-culture-and-politics.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/04/books/review/joe-klein-ex...
      - lapcat 3y ago
        From the very link that you cite: "Webb's book, though well-written and often insightful, is more an exercise in ethnic self-mythologizing than an evenhanded attempt to judge the impact of the Scots-Irish and their culture on America."
        rayiner 3y ago
        The complete paragraph indicates a different tone: > But the Scots-Irish impact on American politics is more problematic than Webb would have us believe. The populist politics they pioneered doesn't necessarily produce the sort of values that sustain liberty. Indeed, the democratic impulse toward comfort and safety often undercuts self-reliance and individualism. Webb's book, though well-written and often insightful, is more an exercise in ethnic self-mythologizing than an evenhanded attempt to judge the impact of the Scots-Irish and their culture on America. My reading of the article is that the author agrees with Webb that "the Scots-Irish impact" on America was large. The point of disagreement is whether that influence was as positive as Webb says, or whether it was "more problematic than Webb would have us believe."
- anon291 3y ago
  > American individualism has existed for multiple generations Can you back this up? Because a review of historic American literature would make our modern age of hyper-individualism 'self-help', etc, seem like a completely foreign culture.
  - hollerith 3y ago
    Societies tend towards an organizing principle, and liberty has been the organizing principle of the US since its founding no less than the interests of the German race was the organizing principle for the Third Reich and anti-capitalism was the organizing principle of the Soviet Union. (Democracy was seen by the founders as way to protect liberty more than liberty was seen as a way to protect democracy.) "Don't tread on me," was a slogan of the American revolution. Ditto, "give me liberty or give me death." For many decades, drug addiction raged in the US while heroin and cocaine remained legal because a Federal law against the free trade in these drugs was seen as an unconstitutional curtailment of the individual's liberty. The starting of a Federal income tax was likewise held up for decades on the same argument. Again, liberty has been the main organizing principle of the US since its founding, and I'd be a little surprised to learn that there are Americans with IQs above 110 that do not know that, but I guess some people are too busy to learn about history and politics.