6 ms·

Kind of odd that it highlighted the need for chargers and the lengths they needed to go to (relying on hydrogen?) to complete the challenge. I'm all for EVs sh

Kind of odd that it highlighted the need for chargers and the lengths they needed to go to (relying on hydrogen?) to complete the challenge. I'm all for EVs showing their strengths (and own several) but tethering to a mobile charging trailer that virtually nobody has access to kind of puts a huge asterisk on the entire thing. I'd love to see an EV-only rally that allows competitors to go faster or slower to optimize charge (faster = higher risk, more discharge) and, in that, force manufacturers and teams to actually innovate on the vehicle to make up for it. Put huge batteries and make it too heavy? It'll struggle in the mud and will likely blow tires. The function of motorsport (and ally, specifically) is to act as a proving ground for vehicles at the extreme end.

wffurr 3y ago
They also set up fuel depots for gas trucks. Doesn’t seem that different.
- KennyBlanken 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - leeoniya 3y ago
    from the article: > It took years to find the right partner, build out the infrastructure and secure the 800 kilograms of green hydrogen required for the 10-day event, she added. yeah, okay. just a nothingburger /s
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      A "2,120-kilometer [off-road race] course using only paper maps, compasses, and plotters" is hardly a normal use case. Trying to read anything into this for general utility to the public is silly.
    - m463 3y ago
      > But until this year, the company used diesel generators to power up the chargers. I imagine the green hydrogen was for PR, because otherwise you could say the EVs were diesel-powered. that said, I expect things like one motor per wheel that EV's can do will become pretty interesting off-road as time goes on.
      - modeless 3y ago
        I can't tell from your comment if you know this or not, but R1T already has one motor per wheel.
        m463 3y ago
        I do. Then if you can electrically drive a suspension, that might be the next leap.
        NickNameNick 3y ago
        There have been attempts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Body_Control#Magic_Body_Control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Body_Control#Magic_Body...
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    I understand the sentiment. Yes overall EVs are much better. It’s still important to point out how they can be further improved, when they have problems like heavier weights causing more PM 2.5 from tires.
    - screamingninja 3y ago
      > It’s still important to point out how they can be further improved That's exactly the point of the discussion above. Why is it important to point out?
      - reducesuffering 3y ago
        So we can look towards and achieve the 80% good solution instead of the 70%? Progress? If we're giving out subsidies for cars can we encourage lighter weight EV's? A Tesla Model X is 50% more weight than a Bolt EV, with similar range.
  - zamadatix 3y ago
    I think a large part of it was the hype part of the hype cycle went too high and lasted too long (as it tends to do). It's a bit like Wayland here, had it not been hyped as the greatest thing to have ever happened to display servers 5 years ago there'd be significantly fewer complaints around it today. The other large part of it is until something is better than the old thing in nearly every way there is going to be a significant volume of people who were really served well by old thing disgusted by the idea of new thing being called better already. For anything as common as cars that has more to do with numbers than a specific HN obsession.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      > The other large part of it is until something is better than the old thing in nearly every way there is going to be a significant volume of people who were really served well by old thing disgusted by the idea of new thing being called better already That's it for me. I'm not philosophically opposed to electric motors powering automobiles. But none of them yet produced serve my needs as well as a gas or diesel powered car. EV proponents are obsessed with trying to "gotcha" my reasons, so there's no need to go into the details. If you're asking me to spend $50k or more on a car, it better damn well be a heck of a lot better in every way than the $5k car I am perfectly happy with, and can replace if needed for the same amount of money.
      - recursive 3y ago
        Not sure if this is a "gotcha", but there are many EVs available for less than $50k. Chevy Bolt can be had under $30k for the base model.
        b112 3y ago
        That's still very expensive compared to what he said, but I note that he had other reasons. These are likely range coupled with charge time. Some can't understand that no, 20 minutes of time (15+ minutes charging plus paying and hookup and so on), to barely 80%, when you can find a free supercharger without route diversion, isn't the same as a 2 minute fillup at the gas station. It's just not. At all. EVs are where we are going, and I am confident we'll get there for all usage cases eventually, but right now EVs are not suitable for some. People need to get over this fact. EVs are not suitable for some. And that's fine! So what of 20% of the population can't use EVs due to range, and another 40% due to cost. That's what early adopters are for, and the price will come down, range via charge time will get even better, and it will self resolve. Frankly, if every car changed to EV tomorrow, we'd have blackouts everywhere, and be forced to restart depreciated coal power stations, just to handle all that sudden power demand. Not to mention the immense cost of new infra, power transfer stations, etc, that needs to be built! But again, we're doing a gradual rollout. People are switching. We'll get there. But the comments of GP make me think he gets the ridiculous replies such as "but no you can just..." if he mentions "EVs aren't suitable for me". The arrogance, and hubris in such replies are astonishing to watch.
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    > It's not. HN is obsessed with trying to "gotcha" electric cars, any form of power generation other than nuclear, public/alternative transit, etc. I've noticed this happening with off-grid setups. People will post a YT video with something where solar covers >90% of their use, but people will point to the generator as some sort of gotcha. In a lot of cases, neither alone would have been practical. That's not a gotcha, that's smart pairing of technology to produce a solution to a real problem. But instead we get a parade of "see you still need diesel". :facepalm
  - Trow83949 3y ago
    3 tons luxury SUV is not exactly "green". And replacing battery after seven or three years is not much difference. Rugged truck like that, should last 30 years with basic maintenance! This car is not even serviceable!!! It is the smugg greenwashing people hate!
    - spiderice 3y ago
      And where exactly did you get the "seven year" figure from?
      - Trow83949 3y ago
        Rivian battery warranty. If you actually use this as a truck, as an off road SUV, or as a farm tractor, haul heavy stuff, pull out tree stumps... It will complete a few full charging cycles every day. Battery will degrade fast. It does so on mobile phones, cars are no different! It is a good idea to have it replaced before warranty runs out. > 8-year or 150,000-mile > The high-voltage battery pack capacity naturally decreases over time with use. This expected gradual capacity loss over time is not covered under the Battery Pack Limited Warranty. However, greater than expected degradation is covered under the Battery Pack Limited Warranty. The warranty will cover a battery pack that loses 30% or more of its normal minimum usable rated capacity within the warranty period.
        pkulak 3y ago
        My gas car is out of warranty and I have yet to replace the engine.
        vegardx 3y ago
        Do you really replace your car engine and transmission before the warranty runs out? You're constructing arguments that literally makes no sense. The battery in your phone isn't comparable to the one in an BEV. If that was true your phone would have a fully working battery ten years later, just with slightly lower capacity. Not one that dies because you open a webpage with a too many moving elements, so battery voltage drops and it turns off. All that said - I don't think a truck like the Rivian R1T makes any sense. For the same reason that I don't think most trucks make any sense. They're just penis extensions that have little to no utility for a vast majority of people that buy them. But since we're OK with that for regular trucks, I think we should be OK with that for the battery electric version too. Lets at least be consistent.
  - fho 3y ago
    The problem is that your EV experience will differ dramatically on your way of sourcing energy. That starts with what you pay for electricity (e.g. 0.4€/100kWh in Germany vs. 0.05€ in Denmark). But continues with how much CO2 is created. With the German energy mix, 1 kWh "produces" 0.434 kg of CO2 (tendency rising). Burning 1l of gasoline results in 2.37 kg. Comparing two cars: Tesla 3 (18 kWh / 100 km, 80-90% efficiency during charging): (18 kWh / (0.8 bis 0.9)) * (0.434kg / kwh) = 8.68 bis 9.765 kg (CO2 per 100km) Toyota Yaris Hybrid (with E10): 3.9 l * (2.37 - 0.126) kg/l = 8.75 kg (CO2 pro 100 km) Which is basically the same ball park. To be fair, Tesla 3 vs Yaris Hybrid is an apple to pears comparison. But the argument that can be made is for a cleaner energy mix and smaller cars.
    - pkulak 3y ago
      That’s cool and all, but you’re assuming gasoline exists in pools, fully refined, under gas stations. Since you’ve priced in the entire lifecycle of every watt of electricity, now you need to run it again taking into account the mining, refining, and transport of oil. Refining is literally boiling the crude and collecting the bits that come off. Most folks think it’s about 6 kWh to rifine one gallon, who knows what for mining and transport. What’s fun about that number is that those 6 kWh would drive an EV about 18 miles. So, unless you have a reasonably efficient gas car, even if you never burned any of the gas you buy, and used it to fill swimming pools or something, you only come out even with an EV.
      - fho 3y ago
        > Since you’ve priced in the entire lifecycle of every watt of electricity I didn't. That's the number without externalized CO2 costs. With those it's closer to 0.48 kg/kWh which comes out at 10kg CO2 per 100km. As I said above, I am not trying to argue against EVs. It's mostly that the German energy mix sucks. (We switched of all our nuclear plants some time ago and now rely on coal again ...) source: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/co2-emissionen-pro-kilowattstunde-strom-steigen https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/co2-emissionen-pro-kil...
    - mtwshngtn 3y ago
      To be fair, you're comparing the amount of CO2 "produced" by the electricity generation of 1 kWh but your 2.37kg figure of CO2 from gasoline does not include CO2 generated from production of the gasoline in the first place, which would be necessary to do an apples-to-apples comparison (of just the "energy source generation/consumption" CO2) [0] [0]: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/oee/pdf/transportation/fuel-efficient-technologies/autosmart_factsheet_6_e.pdf https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/fi...
  - PeterStuer 3y ago
    Tbh I see the opposite. Try not cheerleading EV's, and point out that yes, while they bring some advantages overall the 'progress' is incremental rather than revolutionary, and you'll get branded a 'Petrol addict' or an 'oil shill' on HN. My nr.1 beef with cars is the noise pollution and the excessive space taken by them. Neither of those are changed by EV's. (An EV makes just as much noise above 35 km/h, and now they have them even making fake noises below that speed).
    - Doxin 3y ago
      > My nr.1 beef with cars is the noise pollution and the excessive space taken by them. Neither of those are changed by EV's. I feel like EVs do actually solve part of the noise problem. Yes a EV at speed makes just as much noise as any other car due to tire noise dominating at those speeds. However You've got no idling noises, nor revving noises when taking off. And that's leaving out edge cases like how they introduced electric city buses here and those make wildly less noise than gas or diesel buses. Never mind the lack of gross exhaust fumes.
  - concordDance 3y ago
    Can you try and cut down on the emotive language like "obsessed", "screeching", etc? It heightens emotions and lowers the tone of discussion from curious to conflict driven. Ideally use wording that you think the people you are talking about would agree fairly represents their views. (E.g. for your first sentence, do you think half of HN commentators would agree that they are "obsessed with trying to "gotcha" electric cars, any form of power generation other than nuclear,"?)
- werdnapk 3y ago
  Exactly. It's a 2100km race... no ICE vehicle has that range on one tank of gas either.
GaryNumanVevo 3y ago
Something like Audi's E-tron Dakar truck is super interesting: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37114849/audi-rs-q-e-tron-dakar-rally/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37114849/audi-rs-q-e-tron... 2 motor EV drive train with a tiny diesel engine to charge the batteries. The engine can be hyper optimized for a small RPM band, making it very fuel efficient, and able to be refueled in the middle of the desert.
- mym1990 3y ago
  Been following that car for a bit, something I would love to see in person. It sounds absolutely crazy too.
- tossaway0 3y ago
  The Mazda MX-30 is a production car that does this, and with a rotary engine! It was panned by reviewers for other reasons, but it's still interesting.
  - yread 3y ago
    Nissan e-POWER also has a gasoline engine that charges the battery. But from reviews it looked like it performs worse than a normal hybrid

wffurr 3y ago

They also set up fuel depots for gas trucks. Doesn’t seem that different.

KennyBlanken 3y ago
[flagged]
- leeoniya 3y ago
  from the article: > It took years to find the right partner, build out the infrastructure and secure the 800 kilograms of green hydrogen required for the 10-day event, she added. yeah, okay. just a nothingburger /s
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    A "2,120-kilometer [off-road race] course using only paper maps, compasses, and plotters" is hardly a normal use case. Trying to read anything into this for general utility to the public is silly.
  - m463 3y ago
    > But until this year, the company used diesel generators to power up the chargers. I imagine the green hydrogen was for PR, because otherwise you could say the EVs were diesel-powered. that said, I expect things like one motor per wheel that EV's can do will become pretty interesting off-road as time goes on.
    - modeless 3y ago
      I can't tell from your comment if you know this or not, but R1T already has one motor per wheel.
      - m463 3y ago
        I do. Then if you can electrically drive a suspension, that might be the next leap.
        NickNameNick 3y ago
        There have been attempts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Body_Control#Magic_Body_Control https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Body_Control#Magic_Body...
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  I understand the sentiment. Yes overall EVs are much better. It’s still important to point out how they can be further improved, when they have problems like heavier weights causing more PM 2.5 from tires.
  - screamingninja 3y ago
    > It’s still important to point out how they can be further improved That's exactly the point of the discussion above. Why is it important to point out?
    - reducesuffering 3y ago
      So we can look towards and achieve the 80% good solution instead of the 70%? Progress? If we're giving out subsidies for cars can we encourage lighter weight EV's? A Tesla Model X is 50% more weight than a Bolt EV, with similar range.
- zamadatix 3y ago
  I think a large part of it was the hype part of the hype cycle went too high and lasted too long (as it tends to do). It's a bit like Wayland here, had it not been hyped as the greatest thing to have ever happened to display servers 5 years ago there'd be significantly fewer complaints around it today. The other large part of it is until something is better than the old thing in nearly every way there is going to be a significant volume of people who were really served well by old thing disgusted by the idea of new thing being called better already. For anything as common as cars that has more to do with numbers than a specific HN obsession.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    > The other large part of it is until something is better than the old thing in nearly every way there is going to be a significant volume of people who were really served well by old thing disgusted by the idea of new thing being called better already That's it for me. I'm not philosophically opposed to electric motors powering automobiles. But none of them yet produced serve my needs as well as a gas or diesel powered car. EV proponents are obsessed with trying to "gotcha" my reasons, so there's no need to go into the details. If you're asking me to spend $50k or more on a car, it better damn well be a heck of a lot better in every way than the $5k car I am perfectly happy with, and can replace if needed for the same amount of money.
    - recursive 3y ago
      Not sure if this is a "gotcha", but there are many EVs available for less than $50k. Chevy Bolt can be had under $30k for the base model.
      - b112 3y ago
        That's still very expensive compared to what he said, but I note that he had other reasons. These are likely range coupled with charge time. Some can't understand that no, 20 minutes of time (15+ minutes charging plus paying and hookup and so on), to barely 80%, when you can find a free supercharger without route diversion, isn't the same as a 2 minute fillup at the gas station. It's just not. At all. EVs are where we are going, and I am confident we'll get there for all usage cases eventually, but right now EVs are not suitable for some. People need to get over this fact. EVs are not suitable for some. And that's fine! So what of 20% of the population can't use EVs due to range, and another 40% due to cost. That's what early adopters are for, and the price will come down, range via charge time will get even better, and it will self resolve. Frankly, if every car changed to EV tomorrow, we'd have blackouts everywhere, and be forced to restart depreciated coal power stations, just to handle all that sudden power demand. Not to mention the immense cost of new infra, power transfer stations, etc, that needs to be built! But again, we're doing a gradual rollout. People are switching. We'll get there. But the comments of GP make me think he gets the ridiculous replies such as "but no you can just..." if he mentions "EVs aren't suitable for me". The arrogance, and hubris in such replies are astonishing to watch.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  > It's not. HN is obsessed with trying to "gotcha" electric cars, any form of power generation other than nuclear, public/alternative transit, etc. I've noticed this happening with off-grid setups. People will post a YT video with something where solar covers >90% of their use, but people will point to the generator as some sort of gotcha. In a lot of cases, neither alone would have been practical. That's not a gotcha, that's smart pairing of technology to produce a solution to a real problem. But instead we get a parade of "see you still need diesel". :facepalm
- Trow83949 3y ago
  3 tons luxury SUV is not exactly "green". And replacing battery after seven or three years is not much difference. Rugged truck like that, should last 30 years with basic maintenance! This car is not even serviceable!!! It is the smugg greenwashing people hate!
  - spiderice 3y ago
    And where exactly did you get the "seven year" figure from?
    - Trow83949 3y ago
      Rivian battery warranty. If you actually use this as a truck, as an off road SUV, or as a farm tractor, haul heavy stuff, pull out tree stumps... It will complete a few full charging cycles every day. Battery will degrade fast. It does so on mobile phones, cars are no different! It is a good idea to have it replaced before warranty runs out. > 8-year or 150,000-mile > The high-voltage battery pack capacity naturally decreases over time with use. This expected gradual capacity loss over time is not covered under the Battery Pack Limited Warranty. However, greater than expected degradation is covered under the Battery Pack Limited Warranty. The warranty will cover a battery pack that loses 30% or more of its normal minimum usable rated capacity within the warranty period.
      - pkulak 3y ago
        My gas car is out of warranty and I have yet to replace the engine.
      - vegardx 3y ago
        Do you really replace your car engine and transmission before the warranty runs out? You're constructing arguments that literally makes no sense. The battery in your phone isn't comparable to the one in an BEV. If that was true your phone would have a fully working battery ten years later, just with slightly lower capacity. Not one that dies because you open a webpage with a too many moving elements, so battery voltage drops and it turns off. All that said - I don't think a truck like the Rivian R1T makes any sense. For the same reason that I don't think most trucks make any sense. They're just penis extensions that have little to no utility for a vast majority of people that buy them. But since we're OK with that for regular trucks, I think we should be OK with that for the battery electric version too. Lets at least be consistent.
- fho 3y ago
  The problem is that your EV experience will differ dramatically on your way of sourcing energy. That starts with what you pay for electricity (e.g. 0.4€/100kWh in Germany vs. 0.05€ in Denmark). But continues with how much CO2 is created. With the German energy mix, 1 kWh "produces" 0.434 kg of CO2 (tendency rising). Burning 1l of gasoline results in 2.37 kg. Comparing two cars: Tesla 3 (18 kWh / 100 km, 80-90% efficiency during charging): (18 kWh / (0.8 bis 0.9)) * (0.434kg / kwh) = 8.68 bis 9.765 kg (CO2 per 100km) Toyota Yaris Hybrid (with E10): 3.9 l * (2.37 - 0.126) kg/l = 8.75 kg (CO2 pro 100 km) Which is basically the same ball park. To be fair, Tesla 3 vs Yaris Hybrid is an apple to pears comparison. But the argument that can be made is for a cleaner energy mix and smaller cars.
  - pkulak 3y ago
    That’s cool and all, but you’re assuming gasoline exists in pools, fully refined, under gas stations. Since you’ve priced in the entire lifecycle of every watt of electricity, now you need to run it again taking into account the mining, refining, and transport of oil. Refining is literally boiling the crude and collecting the bits that come off. Most folks think it’s about 6 kWh to rifine one gallon, who knows what for mining and transport. What’s fun about that number is that those 6 kWh would drive an EV about 18 miles. So, unless you have a reasonably efficient gas car, even if you never burned any of the gas you buy, and used it to fill swimming pools or something, you only come out even with an EV.
    - fho 3y ago
      > Since you’ve priced in the entire lifecycle of every watt of electricity I didn't. That's the number without externalized CO2 costs. With those it's closer to 0.48 kg/kWh which comes out at 10kg CO2 per 100km. As I said above, I am not trying to argue against EVs. It's mostly that the German energy mix sucks. (We switched of all our nuclear plants some time ago and now rely on coal again ...) source: https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/co2-emissionen-pro-kilowattstunde-strom-steigen https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/co2-emissionen-pro-kil...
  - mtwshngtn 3y ago
    To be fair, you're comparing the amount of CO2 "produced" by the electricity generation of 1 kWh but your 2.37kg figure of CO2 from gasoline does not include CO2 generated from production of the gasoline in the first place, which would be necessary to do an apples-to-apples comparison (of just the "energy source generation/consumption" CO2) [0] [0]: https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/files/oee/pdf/transportation/fuel-efficient-technologies/autosmart_factsheet_6_e.pdf https://natural-resources.canada.ca/sites/www.nrcan.gc.ca/fi...
- PeterStuer 3y ago
  Tbh I see the opposite. Try not cheerleading EV's, and point out that yes, while they bring some advantages overall the 'progress' is incremental rather than revolutionary, and you'll get branded a 'Petrol addict' or an 'oil shill' on HN. My nr.1 beef with cars is the noise pollution and the excessive space taken by them. Neither of those are changed by EV's. (An EV makes just as much noise above 35 km/h, and now they have them even making fake noises below that speed).
  - Doxin 3y ago
    > My nr.1 beef with cars is the noise pollution and the excessive space taken by them. Neither of those are changed by EV's. I feel like EVs do actually solve part of the noise problem. Yes a EV at speed makes just as much noise as any other car due to tire noise dominating at those speeds. However You've got no idling noises, nor revving noises when taking off. And that's leaving out edge cases like how they introduced electric city buses here and those make wildly less noise than gas or diesel buses. Never mind the lack of gross exhaust fumes.
- concordDance 3y ago
  Can you try and cut down on the emotive language like "obsessed", "screeching", etc? It heightens emotions and lowers the tone of discussion from curious to conflict driven. Ideally use wording that you think the people you are talking about would agree fairly represents their views. (E.g. for your first sentence, do you think half of HN commentators would agree that they are "obsessed with trying to "gotcha" electric cars, any form of power generation other than nuclear,"?)
werdnapk 3y ago
Exactly. It's a 2100km race... no ICE vehicle has that range on one tank of gas either.

GaryNumanVevo 3y ago

Something like Audi's E-tron Dakar truck is super interesting: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37114849/audi-rs-q-e-tron-dakar-rally/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a37114849/audi-rs-q-e-tron... 2 motor EV drive train with a tiny diesel engine to charge the batteries. The engine can be hyper optimized for a small RPM band, making it very fuel efficient, and able to be refueled in the middle of the desert.

mym1990 3y ago
Been following that car for a bit, something I would love to see in person. It sounds absolutely crazy too.
tossaway0 3y ago
The Mazda MX-30 is a production car that does this, and with a rotary engine! It was panned by reviewers for other reasons, but it's still interesting.
- yread 3y ago
  Nissan e-POWER also has a gasoline engine that charges the battery. But from reviews it looked like it performs worse than a normal hybrid