3 ms·

Plenty of women complain about the lack of pockets in women's pants. I think women feel others' judgment about their clothing choices more sharply than men do.

Plenty of women complain about the lack of pockets in women's pants. I think women feel others' judgment about their clothing choices more sharply than men do. This isn't a personality quirk. The condemnation comes down harder on them. Look at what is happening in Iran. Women are being killed for how they choose to dress. So if women make different choices, don't ascribe this entirely to differences in their personality. They face different constraints.

xyzelement 3y ago
Not sure I follow. Apparently not enough women actually want pockets to make that fashion financially worthwhile at scale? Re Iran - you don’t think a man dressed out of line (eg drag) would be killed?
- emmelaich 3y ago
  Actually Iran has a pretty interesting attitude to the androgynous and masculine and feminine roles. Not saying they wouldn't face violence in the street. Also ... > After Maryam Khatoon’s inquiry, Ayatollah Khomeini issued a legal opinion, known as a fatwa under Shi’a Islamic jurisprudence, asserting the permissibility of GAS [gender affirmation surgery] upon medical approval. Trans women’s status in contemporary Iran: Misrecognition and the cultural politics of aberu https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13634607231200552?icid=int.sj-abstract.citing-articles.3 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13634607231200552?i...
  - wilkies 3y ago
    Iran inflicts this as a punishment for homosexual men: https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gender-reassignment-surgery-the-sun https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gende... From the article: > Shadi Amin, an Iranian-born activist, told The Sun that this homophobic Iranian regime is controlled by religious extremists who view being gay as an "illness". They believe that the only way it can be cured is by changing gender. > "The government believes that if you are a gay man, your soul is that of a woman and you should change your body," Amin said. > "We think this is a way [for them] to fight the existence of homosexual people because you change their body and you solve the problem. > "The regime gives gay people two choices – to be arrested as a homosexual and risk punishment or even execution, or change your body." > Government data shows that around 4000 gender reassignment surgeries are performed in Iran each year. > Amin, however, claims that those numbers are actually much higher in reality. > "They are trying to cleanse the country of homosexuals," she added. > "They would rather carry out mass surgeries than executions because they know the world is watching them."
    - pcthrowaway 3y ago
      If you had asked me which country provides free gender reassignment surgery for hetero trans-women, Iran would not have been anywhere in my guesses
      - fennecfoxy 3y ago
        As a gay man I was surprised at this too, but really it's probably because it conveniently provides a means for them to convert a man to a woman, who has much fewer rights/power in their world. I wonder if they would be as friendly to the idea of FtM trans surgeries where a man who is born as a woman would "gain" rights (in their eyes). I find it so sad though, that gay men are forced to undergo reassignment in order to survive there, rather than be able to celebrate both being gay and their own masculinity - it's taking "being gay, a man who likes men" away from gay men, there.
seec 3y ago
Yet they never buy pants with pockets and many other kind of practical clothing that would make their life easier. You can't just listen blindly; you need to look at what they do. Now if you look at the younger generations, you will find some girls wearing that kind of clothing. But if you look at an elevated level on how things work in society, women derive a lot of their power from how they look, how beautiful they appear to be. As the girls become adult whether conscientiously or not, they internalise this and start to dress in a way that maximise their power. If they really wanted there is nothing preventing them to wear men pants that are gender neutral. But they don't because they would lose much more than a few pockets. They do not really need them anyway because even the most rugged women will have some sort of handbag. Because it is one more fashion accessory to show off, because you can carry even more stuff than any pocket would allow and because this way, they don't have to choose between looking beautiful and being able to carry stuff. If anything, women carry around way more stuff than any man could in his pockets. On the other hand, men handbags are not a thing and not just because of fashion or social pressure, but because they are very likely to be asked to do things that require them to have mostly free movement (like carry stuff, hold doors, fix broken things, etc...). A friend once joked to me that he mostly wore strong jeans because he is highly likely to be asked to go down on his knees to fix whatever his wife (and other women) point at him. If you look at one subset of men who derive power from looking beautiful/successful like salesmen, they also dress in a way that is not very practical for most daily activities. A suit has pockets, but mostly in name, they are very weak and shallow and leave disgracious bulges from whatever you are carrying that is not a small item like a simple key, forget about putting a modern smartphone in those pockets, it will not last long (in fact I have been scolded by women about how the stuff I was carrying in my suit pockets made me look bad and how I was ruining the suit). They do it, because just like women, they derive a good amount of power from dressing this way. The major difference is that this power exists only during their work so they very rarely dress this way outside of work, the little power advantage they would get in day-to-day life is not worth the trouble (and added cost). Women on the other hand benefit from this power throughout daily life even in their own home in some cases. It is tiring to always hear about how women are victims of many choices they make themselves; precisely because they are capable of rationality just as well as men (the difference is mostly in usage), and those choices are generally about maximizing their profits.

xyzelement 3y ago

Not sure I follow. Apparently not enough women actually want pockets to make that fashion financially worthwhile at scale? Re Iran - you don’t think a man dressed out of line (eg drag) would be killed?

emmelaich 3y ago
Actually Iran has a pretty interesting attitude to the androgynous and masculine and feminine roles. Not saying they wouldn't face violence in the street. Also ... > After Maryam Khatoon’s inquiry, Ayatollah Khomeini issued a legal opinion, known as a fatwa under Shi’a Islamic jurisprudence, asserting the permissibility of GAS [gender affirmation surgery] upon medical approval. Trans women’s status in contemporary Iran: Misrecognition and the cultural politics of aberu https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13634607231200552?icid=int.sj-abstract.citing-articles.3 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/13634607231200552?i...
- wilkies 3y ago
  Iran inflicts this as a punishment for homosexual men: https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gender-reassignment-surgery-the-sun https://www.thepinknews.com/2020/02/22/iran-gay-forced-gende... From the article: > Shadi Amin, an Iranian-born activist, told The Sun that this homophobic Iranian regime is controlled by religious extremists who view being gay as an "illness". They believe that the only way it can be cured is by changing gender. > "The government believes that if you are a gay man, your soul is that of a woman and you should change your body," Amin said. > "We think this is a way [for them] to fight the existence of homosexual people because you change their body and you solve the problem. > "The regime gives gay people two choices – to be arrested as a homosexual and risk punishment or even execution, or change your body." > Government data shows that around 4000 gender reassignment surgeries are performed in Iran each year. > Amin, however, claims that those numbers are actually much higher in reality. > "They are trying to cleanse the country of homosexuals," she added. > "They would rather carry out mass surgeries than executions because they know the world is watching them."
  - pcthrowaway 3y ago
    If you had asked me which country provides free gender reassignment surgery for hetero trans-women, Iran would not have been anywhere in my guesses
    - fennecfoxy 3y ago
      As a gay man I was surprised at this too, but really it's probably because it conveniently provides a means for them to convert a man to a woman, who has much fewer rights/power in their world. I wonder if they would be as friendly to the idea of FtM trans surgeries where a man who is born as a woman would "gain" rights (in their eyes). I find it so sad though, that gay men are forced to undergo reassignment in order to survive there, rather than be able to celebrate both being gay and their own masculinity - it's taking "being gay, a man who likes men" away from gay men, there.

seec 3y ago

Yet they never buy pants with pockets and many other kind of practical clothing that would make their life easier. You can't just listen blindly; you need to look at what they do. Now if you look at the younger generations, you will find some girls wearing that kind of clothing. But if you look at an elevated level on how things work in society, women derive a lot of their power from how they look, how beautiful they appear to be. As the girls become adult whether conscientiously or not, they internalise this and start to dress in a way that maximise their power. If they really wanted there is nothing preventing them to wear men pants that are gender neutral. But they don't because they would lose much more than a few pockets. They do not really need them anyway because even the most rugged women will have some sort of handbag. Because it is one more fashion accessory to show off, because you can carry even more stuff than any pocket would allow and because this way, they don't have to choose between looking beautiful and being able to carry stuff. If anything, women carry around way more stuff than any man could in his pockets. On the other hand, men handbags are not a thing and not just because of fashion or social pressure, but because they are very likely to be asked to do things that require them to have mostly free movement (like carry stuff, hold doors, fix broken things, etc...). A friend once joked to me that he mostly wore strong jeans because he is highly likely to be asked to go down on his knees to fix whatever his wife (and other women) point at him. If you look at one subset of men who derive power from looking beautiful/successful like salesmen, they also dress in a way that is not very practical for most daily activities. A suit has pockets, but mostly in name, they are very weak and shallow and leave disgracious bulges from whatever you are carrying that is not a small item like a simple key, forget about putting a modern smartphone in those pockets, it will not last long (in fact I have been scolded by women about how the stuff I was carrying in my suit pockets made me look bad and how I was ruining the suit). They do it, because just like women, they derive a good amount of power from dressing this way. The major difference is that this power exists only during their work so they very rarely dress this way outside of work, the little power advantage they would get in day-to-day life is not worth the trouble (and added cost). Women on the other hand benefit from this power throughout daily life even in their own home in some cases. It is tiring to always hear about how women are victims of many choices they make themselves; precisely because they are capable of rationality just as well as men (the difference is mostly in usage), and those choices are generally about maximizing their profits.