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Imho EM has become a lot more difficult because it has been split into Manager, PM, TPM, scrum master, and all kinds of other shit. It’s weird watching teams s

Imho EM has become a lot more difficult because it has been split into Manager, PM, TPM, scrum master, and all kinds of other shit. It’s weird watching teams struggle so much because you have 3 or 4 people trying to do similar jobs and stepping all over one another and ownership goes out the window.

nine_zeros 3y ago
I chuckled because literally zero number of people among the set of EM, PM, TPM, Scrum master actually take responsibility of the actual work. They are all just ordering someone more skilled than them. https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/7af71b76-bfc1-4572-ba48-98954b78fa91_437x492.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_...
- pc86 3y ago
  Sounds like you've just worked at shitty companies. The managers at my company are some of the most technically skilled. Several of the directors have committed code recently on stuff I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
  - nine_zeros 3y ago
    Please name the company if you can. Good companies need to be highlighted more.
    - devonbleak 3y ago
      Pretty much anyone below VP at Fox is expected to still be getting their hands dirty, and I know VPs that are still deep in it.
- ocimbote 3y ago
  I was hoping your link pointed to this picture.
- opportune 3y ago
  I agree with this generally for TPM and project managers. Even then it’s not that they truly do no work, but that the core coordination work they do (which requires very few, but no 0, man hours) could be done with higher fidelity and context by an EM without it really adding much more work to an EM’s job. Engineering managers are responsible for their team’s output; they are often held responsible when their team fails to deliver. Product Managers are responsible for setting and prioritizing the product roadmap across a lot of stakeholders, often with specific business goals to achieve, and spending a lot of time doing stuff like talking to customers and helping with marketing/sales/planning/etc; they are also often held responsible when they don’t deliver on these tasks. It is a very junior engineer perspective to consider it not actual work or for them to have no real responsibilities just because they are not coding. In my experience it has also been common for EMs to be at least staff level ICs skill-wise and PMs to have enough software skills (often having previously been SWEs) that they could be SWEs if they preferred that.
  - icedchai 3y ago
    In the past 10 years I only worked with one manager who had staff level IC skills. It’s much more common to have a mediocre EM that doesn’t even look at the code. If you’re “managing” a 4 person team and not at least looking at PRs, seeing the actual work product, you are out of touch.
    - drjasonharrison 3y ago
      A four person team would typically have a "team lead" who is rarely responsible for providing feedback to their engineering manager with performance reviews, goal setting, and so on. I however wouldn't expect the EM to do more than glance at PRs and see if they are moving along and the comments are constructive. But it is very rare that someone who is not working regularly with the code would be able to maintain a useful mental model of the code. Thus the glance might just be at a dashboard to determine if PRs are "too big" or are having unexpected amounts of time being ignored.
      - icedchai 3y ago
- 3c6bYDXLMj 3y ago
  This attitude is an immediate red flag to me. Insert the xkcd of everyone on the subway with the same thought bubble over their heads. The lingering “rockstar developer talent” stereotype, especially in SV, only serves to add fuel to this fire. Developers aren’t special.
  - nine_zeros 3y ago
    > Developers aren’t special. No they aren't. But, in that image, they are the only ones without whom the work will not be done. In other words, everyone else in that image is even less special than developers. Anyone unable to acknowledge the mediocrity of other job roles is a massive red flag imo.
    - liquidpele 3y ago
      No no, you see, it’s a lot of work having endless meetings about what wording to put into documents no one would care about if they didn’t exist.
- elbear 3y ago
  Good managers coordinate. They don't give orders
_s 3y ago
I'd argue you need this split - managing people is different skill set to managing a project, which is different to managing the technology, which is different to managing a product. They do overlap, but to me there is a clear line between their responsibilities and authority. Things get blurry in smaller orgs, but in larger ones with multiple product streams, budgets and stakeholders - they're usually pretty clearly defined roles.
- liquidpele 3y ago
  Like many things, it sounds good in theory which is why many try it... but in reality it often turns to shit because you end up with 4 quazi-managers all stepping over everyone else and constantly asking the team to do extra work (like generating data/reports or attend meetings) that's really their own damn jobs because surprise-surprise being technically capable of more than making spreadsheets wasn't part of the original job requirements.

nine_zeros 3y ago

I chuckled because literally zero number of people among the set of EM, PM, TPM, Scrum master actually take responsibility of the actual work. They are all just ordering someone more skilled than them. https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https://substack-post-media.s3.amazonaws.com/public/images/7af71b76-bfc1-4572-ba48-98954b78fa91_437x492.png https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/w_1272,c_limit,f_webp,q_...

pc86 3y ago
Sounds like you've just worked at shitty companies. The managers at my company are some of the most technically skilled. Several of the directors have committed code recently on stuff I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  Please name the company if you can. Good companies need to be highlighted more.
  - devonbleak 3y ago
    Pretty much anyone below VP at Fox is expected to still be getting their hands dirty, and I know VPs that are still deep in it.
ocimbote 3y ago
I was hoping your link pointed to this picture.
opportune 3y ago
I agree with this generally for TPM and project managers. Even then it’s not that they truly do no work, but that the core coordination work they do (which requires very few, but no 0, man hours) could be done with higher fidelity and context by an EM without it really adding much more work to an EM’s job. Engineering managers are responsible for their team’s output; they are often held responsible when their team fails to deliver. Product Managers are responsible for setting and prioritizing the product roadmap across a lot of stakeholders, often with specific business goals to achieve, and spending a lot of time doing stuff like talking to customers and helping with marketing/sales/planning/etc; they are also often held responsible when they don’t deliver on these tasks. It is a very junior engineer perspective to consider it not actual work or for them to have no real responsibilities just because they are not coding. In my experience it has also been common for EMs to be at least staff level ICs skill-wise and PMs to have enough software skills (often having previously been SWEs) that they could be SWEs if they preferred that.
- icedchai 3y ago
  In the past 10 years I only worked with one manager who had staff level IC skills. It’s much more common to have a mediocre EM that doesn’t even look at the code. If you’re “managing” a 4 person team and not at least looking at PRs, seeing the actual work product, you are out of touch.
  - drjasonharrison 3y ago
    A four person team would typically have a "team lead" who is rarely responsible for providing feedback to their engineering manager with performance reviews, goal setting, and so on. I however wouldn't expect the EM to do more than glance at PRs and see if they are moving along and the comments are constructive. But it is very rare that someone who is not working regularly with the code would be able to maintain a useful mental model of the code. Thus the glance might just be at a dashboard to determine if PRs are "too big" or are having unexpected amounts of time being ignored.
    - icedchai 3y ago
3c6bYDXLMj 3y ago
This attitude is an immediate red flag to me. Insert the xkcd of everyone on the subway with the same thought bubble over their heads. The lingering “rockstar developer talent” stereotype, especially in SV, only serves to add fuel to this fire. Developers aren’t special.
- nine_zeros 3y ago
  > Developers aren’t special. No they aren't. But, in that image, they are the only ones without whom the work will not be done. In other words, everyone else in that image is even less special than developers. Anyone unable to acknowledge the mediocrity of other job roles is a massive red flag imo.
  - liquidpele 3y ago
    No no, you see, it’s a lot of work having endless meetings about what wording to put into documents no one would care about if they didn’t exist.
elbear 3y ago
Good managers coordinate. They don't give orders

_s 3y ago

I'd argue you need this split - managing people is different skill set to managing a project, which is different to managing the technology, which is different to managing a product. They do overlap, but to me there is a clear line between their responsibilities and authority. Things get blurry in smaller orgs, but in larger ones with multiple product streams, budgets and stakeholders - they're usually pretty clearly defined roles.

liquidpele 3y ago
Like many things, it sounds good in theory which is why many try it... but in reality it often turns to shit because you end up with 4 quazi-managers all stepping over everyone else and constantly asking the team to do extra work (like generating data/reports or attend meetings) that's really their own damn jobs because surprise-surprise being technically capable of more than making spreadsheets wasn't part of the original job requirements.