4 ms·

People might not feel that way if you didn't belittle homemakers (or do we need movements to let people know they can do things other than be doctors/lawyers/wh

People might not feel that way if you didn't belittle homemakers (or do we need movements to let people know they can do things other than be doctors/lawyers/whatever profession you view as high status?) A more equitable solution than socialized childcare that recognizes that homemaker is a valuable job that lots of women (50% of those with children) would prefer to do would be to increase the refundable child tax credit. Then you could use that money for hired childcare or to "hire yourself" as a caretaker according to your preference (obviously men could also be the homemaker if that's what the couple wants).

pixl97 3y ago
At the end of the day I'd say even talking about homemakers doesn't matter as much as you think. People in general like the addition economic freedom from making more money. Even starting at WWII women started working in huge numbers in the US and that number has increased ever since. The sending the money back in tax credits barely works in a single income house because the otherside in the massive increase of available workers in the US is the massive inflation of assets. When one person works solely to afford a house, the other person can't take a break to have a child. Now add in the out of control costs of healthcare tied to your job no one in the younger generation is going to want to have a child.
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  Maybe, but anecdotally, despite the zeitgeist of the last 10 years claiming otherwise, my wife and I both raised in middle class suburbs of different parts of red-state Arizona both internalized the message growing up that girls not working was an anachronism that only Mormons/Catholics still stuck to (and that it was "oppressive" or weird). It's so ingrained in the middle/upper middle class that people can't even see it. e.g. this article from Yale[0]: > Despite efforts to promote gender equality in occupations and professions, many women still choose to stay at home or work part-time. In the United States, for example, a 2015 Gallup survey found that more than half of women with children under age 18 would prefer to stay at home over working outside the home. Also, nearly 40 percent of women without children under age 18 indicated that they preferred the homemaker role. Let the phrasing sink in. Despite efforts, women still prefer that role. It's quite clear from context that their preference is wrong. As far as economics goes, people wildly overstate how unachievable it is. Having a stay-at-home parent is not something reserved for the 1%, and in fact many poorer people do it for economic reasons. People have been taught not to want it, so they don't try to figure out how to make it work. [0] https://archive-yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/more-women-stay-home-men https://archive-yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/more-women-stay-...
  - pixl97 3y ago
    And conversely why is there no counter for men being stay at home rather than women? Other than a few month around the time of childbirth there is little reason for the woman to be the stay at home partner.... this is why I doubt the motivation behind the people saying "oh its just women's preference" since surely some sizable portion of men would also like to have this option.
    - ndriscoll 3y ago
      There has been some progress in that area over the last 30 years; the percent of stay-at-home dads has ~doubled, and now 18% of stay-at-home parents are dads, up from 11% 30 years ago[0]. There are certainly people pushing to normalize SAHDs in addition to calling for gender parity with paternity leave. That said, women are still almost 2x likely to prefer homemaking[1] even with the social engineering, and I suspect women's preferences are stronger than men's (e.g. I think it would be nice to be a SAHD, and I'd prefer it over outside work, but we probably wouldn't be together if my wife weren't the SAHM). So as a man you have to be prepared to accept that that's how the world is. Someone has to bring in money, and it'll probably be you. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/03/almost-1-in-5-stay-at-home-parents-in-the-us-are-dads/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/03/almost-1-... [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer-working-homemaking.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer...
    - em-bee 3y ago
      Other than a few month around the time of childbirth there is little reason for the woman to be the stay at home partner. i think breastfeeding is still a significant factor for the first year at least. working while breastfeeding can be a challenge.
mvncleaninst 3y ago
> A more equitable solution than socialized childcare that recognizes that homemaker is a valuable job It isn't a valuable job, economically speaking. It's an anachronism and essentially a luxury for couples where one parent makes enough to support the entire household. Not only this, but it essentially puts all of the pressure on the working parent to economically hold up the household The cases where it economically makes sense are practically nonexistent in 2023
- ndriscoll 3y ago
  It's viable and modern enough that over 25% of women do it [0]. And there's a wide spectrum of people who make that choice. There's a large amount of parents that take on that role because their alternatives (e.g. retail jobs or gig work) would leave them in a worse position after paying for childcare, but no one's claiming retail work is not economically viable. Though if I had to make a judgement, I'd say raising your children full-time is more valuable work than e.g. Instacart or Starbucks, which are both luxuries. Honestly I don't know how you could even make an economic statement about it that doesn't boil down to a tautology unless you're also willing to say e.g. teachers aren't an economically valuable job. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/03/almost-1-in-5-stay-at-home-parents-in-the-us-are-dads/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/03/almost-1-...

pixl97 3y ago

At the end of the day I'd say even talking about homemakers doesn't matter as much as you think. People in general like the addition economic freedom from making more money. Even starting at WWII women started working in huge numbers in the US and that number has increased ever since. The sending the money back in tax credits barely works in a single income house because the otherside in the massive increase of available workers in the US is the massive inflation of assets. When one person works solely to afford a house, the other person can't take a break to have a child. Now add in the out of control costs of healthcare tied to your job no one in the younger generation is going to want to have a child.

ndriscoll 3y ago
Maybe, but anecdotally, despite the zeitgeist of the last 10 years claiming otherwise, my wife and I both raised in middle class suburbs of different parts of red-state Arizona both internalized the message growing up that girls not working was an anachronism that only Mormons/Catholics still stuck to (and that it was "oppressive" or weird). It's so ingrained in the middle/upper middle class that people can't even see it. e.g. this article from Yale[0]: > Despite efforts to promote gender equality in occupations and professions, many women still choose to stay at home or work part-time. In the United States, for example, a 2015 Gallup survey found that more than half of women with children under age 18 would prefer to stay at home over working outside the home. Also, nearly 40 percent of women without children under age 18 indicated that they preferred the homemaker role. Let the phrasing sink in. Despite efforts, women still prefer that role. It's quite clear from context that their preference is wrong. As far as economics goes, people wildly overstate how unachievable it is. Having a stay-at-home parent is not something reserved for the 1%, and in fact many poorer people do it for economic reasons. People have been taught not to want it, so they don't try to figure out how to make it work. [0] https://archive-yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/more-women-stay-home-men https://archive-yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/more-women-stay-...
- pixl97 3y ago
  And conversely why is there no counter for men being stay at home rather than women? Other than a few month around the time of childbirth there is little reason for the woman to be the stay at home partner.... this is why I doubt the motivation behind the people saying "oh its just women's preference" since surely some sizable portion of men would also like to have this option.
  - ndriscoll 3y ago
    There has been some progress in that area over the last 30 years; the percent of stay-at-home dads has ~doubled, and now 18% of stay-at-home parents are dads, up from 11% 30 years ago[0]. There are certainly people pushing to normalize SAHDs in addition to calling for gender parity with paternity leave. That said, women are still almost 2x likely to prefer homemaking[1] even with the social engineering, and I suspect women's preferences are stronger than men's (e.g. I think it would be nice to be a SAHD, and I'd prefer it over outside work, but we probably wouldn't be together if my wife weren't the SAHM). So as a man you have to be prepared to accept that that's how the world is. Someone has to bring in money, and it'll probably be you. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/03/almost-1-in-5-stay-at-home-parents-in-the-us-are-dads/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/03/almost-1-... [1] https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer-working-homemaking.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/267737/record-high-women-prefer...
  - em-bee 3y ago
    Other than a few month around the time of childbirth there is little reason for the woman to be the stay at home partner. i think breastfeeding is still a significant factor for the first year at least. working while breastfeeding can be a challenge.

mvncleaninst 3y ago

> A more equitable solution than socialized childcare that recognizes that homemaker is a valuable job It isn't a valuable job, economically speaking. It's an anachronism and essentially a luxury for couples where one parent makes enough to support the entire household. Not only this, but it essentially puts all of the pressure on the working parent to economically hold up the household The cases where it economically makes sense are practically nonexistent in 2023

ndriscoll 3y ago
It's viable and modern enough that over 25% of women do it [0]. And there's a wide spectrum of people who make that choice. There's a large amount of parents that take on that role because their alternatives (e.g. retail jobs or gig work) would leave them in a worse position after paying for childcare, but no one's claiming retail work is not economically viable. Though if I had to make a judgement, I'd say raising your children full-time is more valuable work than e.g. Instacart or Starbucks, which are both luxuries. Honestly I don't know how you could even make an economic statement about it that doesn't boil down to a tautology unless you're also willing to say e.g. teachers aren't an economically valuable job. [0] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/03/almost-1-in-5-stay-at-home-parents-in-the-us-are-dads/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/08/03/almost-1-...