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I'm OK with the prospect of dying (luckily). I have no serious responsibilties; nobody depends any more on me continuing to live. I can understand how attachme

I'm OK with the prospect of dying (luckily). I have no serious responsibilties; nobody depends any more on me continuing to live. I can understand how attachment makes death a separation from everything, so a cause of dread for many; what I can't really understand is struggling to stay alive when the odds are heavily stacked against you. That must cause more pain and dread than just facing reality. I hope I don't sound callous or mean.

lionkor 3y ago
Its possible that some people have a very strong "will to live", for whatever reason wanting to live on despite all circumstances. I would bet that people who have experienced extreme hardships but aren't satisfied with their life yet would not give up, even if it was the best thing to do.
- Trow83949 3y ago
  People with weak "will to live" are just depressed. There is no need to overthink it.
basisword 3y ago
Have you ever been in a situation like you describe? I think human instinct kicks in. I've been in situations I thought I would rather be dead than in - but when in them you tend to want to fight even if the odds are against you. It takes a true belief there is no hope to actually want to die rather than fight.
- ip26 3y ago
  It also comes to mind that it is relatively uncommon in the human experience for things to just continuously get worse before they get worse. Most people have experienced things eventually getting better, teaching them perseverance and faith.
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  > Have you ever been in a situation like you describe? Knowing that death is certain? Yup. In fact I never expected to live as long as I've lived. > I think human instinct kicks in. Well, there's some kind of motive, sure; but "human instinct" implies that all humans have it built-in. I'm a counter-example, and I'm not alone in that. > It takes a true belief there is no hope to actually want to die rather than fight. Oh, I don't want to die. I'd struggle, e.g. if I was faced with a murder; might as well have a go. But I wouldn't struggle like the folk in TFA to get access to unlicensed experimental cancer treatments. I didn't read the first article, so I don't have the full context. It makes a huge difference if you have people counting on you. It makes sense to struggle for the sake of other people. [Edit] Arguably, participating in a trial is struggling for the sake of other people; but that's not the attitude I got from TFA.
- ccooffee 3y ago
  I've been in those situations. Your description here does not match my experiences at all. I _hate_ the vernacular of "fighting cancer". As a leukemia survivor, it wasn't a fight. You don't punch back. It's more akin to public flogging. My body was absolutely destroyed by the treatments, and as I watched myself turn from a human being to a not-yet-dead skeleton, I had to endure people calling me "brave" and a "fighter". It absolutely felt like public mocking (though the people around me certainly did not intend anything of the sort). I was forced to watch my loved ones struggle with my impending death. Only a couple people were able to actually discuss death with me, with everyone else dancing around the topic like I had nothing more than a bad sunburn. I never lost hope, but I was expecting to die. The "fight" worldview kept my loved ones emotionally distant and distracted. Maybe that was good for their own mental health, but it certainly didn't help mine.
  - ekanes 3y ago
    I'm sorry you had to go through that. Do you have any ideas on a better framework for society to approach this? As you allude, people intend the best for the patient, and this seems to be what we've come up with. "You are a fighter, you can do this." It seems like the two possible frameworks are fighting vs enduring? (Others?) If I had to guess, we might choose to position the patient as a fighter because to fight against harsh odds requires courage, so what we're giving is the compliment that you are courageous. I think that's the intent at least.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - jdietrich 3y ago
      I think the "fighter" rhetoric is specific to individualistic cultures that place a high premium on personal agency. Westerners in general and (liberal, college-educated) Americans in particular have a really hard time dealing with the idea that something might be largely or wholly out of their control. The opposite extreme would be fatalistic cultures, where one's death or survival is in the hands of god - deo volente, besiyata dishmaya, inshallah. I think a reasonable middle ground starts with acknowledging that being seriously ill is just a shitty situation, that over a long enough time frame death is inevitable, and that outcomes are often determined mostly by dumb luck. Not being in control can be very distressing, but the struggle to try and retain control often just compounds that distress. Willing someone to "fight" a cellular process within their body probably isn't going to help them in any meaningful way, but there are lots of things that can be done to make them more comfortable. Hope is valuable, but false hope is a kind of cruelty; we all need to be better at accepting the limits of medicine and recognising the threshold of futility.
- jdietrich 3y ago
  Almost all medical professionals have seen what we call “futile care” being performed on people. That’s when doctors bring the cutting edge of technology to bear on a grievously ill person near the end of life. The patient will get cut open, perforated with tubes, hooked up to machines, and assaulted with drugs. All of this occurs in the Intensive Care Unit at a cost of tens of thousands of dollars a day. What it buys is misery we would not inflict on a terrorist. I cannot count the number of times fellow physicians have told me, in words that vary only slightly, “Promise me if you find me like this that you’ll kill me.” They mean it. https://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2011/11/30/how-doctors-die/ideas/nexus/ https://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2011/11/30/how-doctors-di...
delusional 3y ago
Humans aren't logical beings. We don't continually evaluate the pros and cons of living and make our decision based on that. I think it's very human to want to live in even the most dire circumstances. You have to remember that from the self's perspective, being dead is not an alternative to being alive. Being dead is the end where no alternatives exist. You are not choosing between life and death. You are choosing between immediate death or the continuation of experiences, followed by death.

lionkor 3y ago

Its possible that some people have a very strong "will to live", for whatever reason wanting to live on despite all circumstances. I would bet that people who have experienced extreme hardships but aren't satisfied with their life yet would not give up, even if it was the best thing to do.

Trow83949 3y ago
People with weak "will to live" are just depressed. There is no need to overthink it.

basisword 3y ago

Have you ever been in a situation like you describe? I think human instinct kicks in. I've been in situations I thought I would rather be dead than in - but when in them you tend to want to fight even if the odds are against you. It takes a true belief there is no hope to actually want to die rather than fight.

ip26 3y ago
It also comes to mind that it is relatively uncommon in the human experience for things to just continuously get worse before they get worse. Most people have experienced things eventually getting better, teaching them perseverance and faith.
denton-scratch 3y ago
> Have you ever been in a situation like you describe? Knowing that death is certain? Yup. In fact I never expected to live as long as I've lived. > I think human instinct kicks in. Well, there's some kind of motive, sure; but "human instinct" implies that all humans have it built-in. I'm a counter-example, and I'm not alone in that. > It takes a true belief there is no hope to actually want to die rather than fight. Oh, I don't want to die. I'd struggle, e.g. if I was faced with a murder; might as well have a go. But I wouldn't struggle like the folk in TFA to get access to unlicensed experimental cancer treatments. I didn't read the first article, so I don't have the full context. It makes a huge difference if you have people counting on you. It makes sense to struggle for the sake of other people. [Edit] Arguably, participating in a trial is struggling for the sake of other people; but that's not the attitude I got from TFA.
ccooffee 3y ago
I've been in those situations. Your description here does not match my experiences at all. I _hate_ the vernacular of "fighting cancer". As a leukemia survivor, it wasn't a fight. You don't punch back. It's more akin to public flogging. My body was absolutely destroyed by the treatments, and as I watched myself turn from a human being to a not-yet-dead skeleton, I had to endure people calling me "brave" and a "fighter". It absolutely felt like public mocking (though the people around me certainly did not intend anything of the sort). I was forced to watch my loved ones struggle with my impending death. Only a couple people were able to actually discuss death with me, with everyone else dancing around the topic like I had nothing more than a bad sunburn. I never lost hope, but I was expecting to die. The "fight" worldview kept my loved ones emotionally distant and distracted. Maybe that was good for their own mental health, but it certainly didn't help mine.
- ekanes 3y ago
  I'm sorry you had to go through that. Do you have any ideas on a better framework for society to approach this? As you allude, people intend the best for the patient, and this seems to be what we've come up with. "You are a fighter, you can do this." It seems like the two possible frameworks are fighting vs enduring? (Others?) If I had to guess, we might choose to position the patient as a fighter because to fight against harsh odds requires courage, so what we're giving is the compliment that you are courageous. I think that's the intent at least.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jdietrich 3y ago
    I think the "fighter" rhetoric is specific to individualistic cultures that place a high premium on personal agency. Westerners in general and (liberal, college-educated) Americans in particular have a really hard time dealing with the idea that something might be largely or wholly out of their control. The opposite extreme would be fatalistic cultures, where one's death or survival is in the hands of god - deo volente, besiyata dishmaya, inshallah. I think a reasonable middle ground starts with acknowledging that being seriously ill is just a shitty situation, that over a long enough time frame death is inevitable, and that outcomes are often determined mostly by dumb luck. Not being in control can be very distressing, but the struggle to try and retain control often just compounds that distress. Willing someone to "fight" a cellular process within their body probably isn't going to help them in any meaningful way, but there are lots of things that can be done to make them more comfortable. Hope is valuable, but false hope is a kind of cruelty; we all need to be better at accepting the limits of medicine and recognising the threshold of futility.
jdietrich 3y ago
Almost all medical professionals have seen what we call “futile care” being performed on people. That’s when doctors bring the cutting edge of technology to bear on a grievously ill person near the end of life. The patient will get cut open, perforated with tubes, hooked up to machines, and assaulted with drugs. All of this occurs in the Intensive Care Unit at a cost of tens of thousands of dollars a day. What it buys is misery we would not inflict on a terrorist. I cannot count the number of times fellow physicians have told me, in words that vary only slightly, “Promise me if you find me like this that you’ll kill me.” They mean it. https://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2011/11/30/how-doctors-die/ideas/nexus/ https://www.zocalopublicsquare.org/2011/11/30/how-doctors-di...

delusional 3y ago

Humans aren't logical beings. We don't continually evaluate the pros and cons of living and make our decision based on that. I think it's very human to want to live in even the most dire circumstances. You have to remember that from the self's perspective, being dead is not an alternative to being alive. Being dead is the end where no alternatives exist. You are not choosing between life and death. You are choosing between immediate death or the continuation of experiences, followed by death.