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I think fascism is a bad term to use here, totalitarianism or thought-policing is more what you mean. Fascism refers to specific political beliefs including to

I think fascism is a bad term to use here, totalitarianism or thought-policing is more what you mean. Fascism refers to specific political beliefs including totalitarianism plus some form of cultural supremacy (typically racism, but it can also be religious or nationalistic), rigid hierarchy, and might-makes-right morals. Not all totalitarian regimes are fascist, and the behavior you're describing is neither hierarchical nor racist, so I don't think it's fascist in any way. And I'm not saying this to simply be pedantic. Fascism is scary and powerful because of the specific combination of those ideas, especially the militaristic efficiency of fascist organizations. PC/woke mobs are not scary in the same ways, and need different precautions.

Waterluvian 3y ago
Thanks for the comment. I think you’re right and that it’s important enough to try to change my habit of word use.
mikrotikker 3y ago
Not to take away from anything you said, but the woke/PC mob are kind of scary right. They have the cultural supremacy part, like a non theistic religion where adherence to the tenets are required or you'll be excused. Those weird and creepy struggle sessions. Not to mention it is one side of the ongoing culture war. They have the rigid hierarchy known as the progressive stack that ranks people on their immutable characteristics rather than their individual merits. The might makes right comes from the antifa groups who ”by any means necessary” violently attack those who do not adhere to the tenets of the strange religion. As well as the control from the institutions such as universities where in faculty or students that don't adhere to the tenets are abused until they leave or are fired outright. So it's pretty close right? I'm sure there are a few other tenets of fascism that you left out for brevity which would preclude the woke/PC mob from the facist label but it's interesting and scary how close they come. I'm just glad they're not good with weapons, except for the Jon Brown Gun Club, for whom the addition of weapons seem to have a slightly deradicalizing effect
- deleted 3y ago
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- tsimionescu 3y ago
  When I say cultural supremacy, I mean the belief that your cultural group is superior to all others, and so its needs are rightfully to be prioritized even over the basic rights of other groups. Even the worse woke mobs I've heard about aren't advocating that, say, it is rightful for a hundred Republicans to go hungry to feed a trans person better or something, so I don't think they check this box. When I say rigid hierarchy, I mean an actual hierarchical organization where there are leaders giving orders and those below them executing and giving orders of their own down the hierarchy. There is nothing of the kind in woke spaces, they are in fact infamously sectarian and often spontaneously turn on yesterday's leaders for group think. So this box is also not checked. Might makes right refers to the explicit belief that as long as I can physically force some result, it was rightful and beyond reproach for me to have done so ("I conquered this land so I have proved I am stronger than you so I deserve it more than you"). Antifa may believe that punching nazis is justified, but they believe it is justified because of the evils of nazism, not because violence is self-justifying. Similarly, wielding organizational power against an individual accused of wrongthink is not an example of might makes right, at least not as long as the wrongthink isn't entirely arbitrarily invented for each individual. An example from actual fascist organizations sometimes is culling "weak" members by hazing rituals, where emotional or physical violence is intentionally inflicted simply to see if the subject can withstand it (this also helps in building the rigid hierarchies I mentioned above, as it tends to eliminate people who can't accept arbitrary orders). Again, this box remains un ticked. So no, I don't think any woke mobs I've heard about resemble fascist organizations. Which, again, is not to say they are good. Just because you're not a fascist doesn't mean you're a force for good in the world, it's entirely possible to be malevolent and dangerous without being fascistic.
deleted 3y ago
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OfSanguineFire 3y ago
A glance at Mastodon top posts will show that the term “fascism” no longer refers to a set of political beliefs that arose in early 20th century Europe, and the associated violent regimes. It is used now for anything whatsoever that the person does not like. For example, since trans advocacy is such a big part of the Mastodon community, I have seen a poster claim that anything less than considering a person their claimed gender is “fascism”. That would make even non-Western cultures with an ancient tradition of acceptance of transpeople, but ascribing them to a third gender, comparable to Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco. People are just using the term as a slur without even thinking it through.
- tsimionescu 3y ago
  Comparing people who don't use someone's preferred pronouns/gender association to Hitler is obviously ridiculous and I don't think there's too much to be gained from discussing with someone who believes such a thing. However, I'm not sure why this contradicts my point. Those people are simply wrong in their use of the word. Unless you believe that Mastodon woke lefties are representative of the broader American English zeitgeist, I doubt you could say that the language has changed such the term fascist just means evil.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    > Unless you believe that Mastodon woke lefties are representative of the broader American English zeitgeist A year ago I would have thought those people some weird online-only fringe. But not after travels around the USA for a couple of months last year, followed by time spent in Baja and interacting with Americans who came down there. So many young Americans are very concerned with pronouns and their proper usage, and the attitudes of early-millennium activist movements like Antifa seem to have made inroads into the wider culture. Of course, American society is polarized and there is a whole other camp. I suspect that “fascism” is increasingly a popular slur even for Americans who aren’t so terminally online, and because a word’s meaning is popularly determined by its usage, that means that it’s pointless to complain that they are “using it wrong”.
    - 3y ago

Waterluvian 3y ago

Thanks for the comment. I think you’re right and that it’s important enough to try to change my habit of word use.

mikrotikker 3y ago

Not to take away from anything you said, but the woke/PC mob are kind of scary right. They have the cultural supremacy part, like a non theistic religion where adherence to the tenets are required or you'll be excused. Those weird and creepy struggle sessions. Not to mention it is one side of the ongoing culture war. They have the rigid hierarchy known as the progressive stack that ranks people on their immutable characteristics rather than their individual merits. The might makes right comes from the antifa groups who ”by any means necessary” violently attack those who do not adhere to the tenets of the strange religion. As well as the control from the institutions such as universities where in faculty or students that don't adhere to the tenets are abused until they leave or are fired outright. So it's pretty close right? I'm sure there are a few other tenets of fascism that you left out for brevity which would preclude the woke/PC mob from the facist label but it's interesting and scary how close they come. I'm just glad they're not good with weapons, except for the Jon Brown Gun Club, for whom the addition of weapons seem to have a slightly deradicalizing effect

deleted 3y ago
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tsimionescu 3y ago
When I say cultural supremacy, I mean the belief that your cultural group is superior to all others, and so its needs are rightfully to be prioritized even over the basic rights of other groups. Even the worse woke mobs I've heard about aren't advocating that, say, it is rightful for a hundred Republicans to go hungry to feed a trans person better or something, so I don't think they check this box. When I say rigid hierarchy, I mean an actual hierarchical organization where there are leaders giving orders and those below them executing and giving orders of their own down the hierarchy. There is nothing of the kind in woke spaces, they are in fact infamously sectarian and often spontaneously turn on yesterday's leaders for group think. So this box is also not checked. Might makes right refers to the explicit belief that as long as I can physically force some result, it was rightful and beyond reproach for me to have done so ("I conquered this land so I have proved I am stronger than you so I deserve it more than you"). Antifa may believe that punching nazis is justified, but they believe it is justified because of the evils of nazism, not because violence is self-justifying. Similarly, wielding organizational power against an individual accused of wrongthink is not an example of might makes right, at least not as long as the wrongthink isn't entirely arbitrarily invented for each individual. An example from actual fascist organizations sometimes is culling "weak" members by hazing rituals, where emotional or physical violence is intentionally inflicted simply to see if the subject can withstand it (this also helps in building the rigid hierarchies I mentioned above, as it tends to eliminate people who can't accept arbitrary orders). Again, this box remains un ticked. So no, I don't think any woke mobs I've heard about resemble fascist organizations. Which, again, is not to say they are good. Just because you're not a fascist doesn't mean you're a force for good in the world, it's entirely possible to be malevolent and dangerous without being fascistic.

deleted 3y ago

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OfSanguineFire 3y ago

A glance at Mastodon top posts will show that the term “fascism” no longer refers to a set of political beliefs that arose in early 20th century Europe, and the associated violent regimes. It is used now for anything whatsoever that the person does not like. For example, since trans advocacy is such a big part of the Mastodon community, I have seen a poster claim that anything less than considering a person their claimed gender is “fascism”. That would make even non-Western cultures with an ancient tradition of acceptance of transpeople, but ascribing them to a third gender, comparable to Hitler, Mussolini, and Franco. People are just using the term as a slur without even thinking it through.

tsimionescu 3y ago
Comparing people who don't use someone's preferred pronouns/gender association to Hitler is obviously ridiculous and I don't think there's too much to be gained from discussing with someone who believes such a thing. However, I'm not sure why this contradicts my point. Those people are simply wrong in their use of the word. Unless you believe that Mastodon woke lefties are representative of the broader American English zeitgeist, I doubt you could say that the language has changed such the term fascist just means evil.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  > Unless you believe that Mastodon woke lefties are representative of the broader American English zeitgeist A year ago I would have thought those people some weird online-only fringe. But not after travels around the USA for a couple of months last year, followed by time spent in Baja and interacting with Americans who came down there. So many young Americans are very concerned with pronouns and their proper usage, and the attitudes of early-millennium activist movements like Antifa seem to have made inroads into the wider culture. Of course, American society is polarized and there is a whole other camp. I suspect that “fascism” is increasingly a popular slur even for Americans who aren’t so terminally online, and because a word’s meaning is popularly determined by its usage, that means that it’s pointless to complain that they are “using it wrong”.
  - 3y ago