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> A truly altruistic system would not confer such a huge advantage on early miners Bitcoin never claimed to be and is not altruistic. And the same can be said

> A truly altruistic system would not confer such a huge advantage on early miners Bitcoin never claimed to be and is not altruistic. And the same can be said about almost all investments, you need information early, you need to judge the information correctly, and you need to move in. Same with bitcoin.

aniforprez 3y ago
GP said nothing about bitcoin claiming to be anything. They're directly quoting the article
- toenail 3y ago
  Your point being?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- tvink 3y ago
  But they seem to translate a quote that posits someone would be altruistic to create a monetary system without enriching themselves, to "bitcoin is an altruistic system" and then shoot down that statement rather than what the quote is saying.
gonehome 3y ago
Plus rewarding early miners creative the incentive structure more likely to drive adoption.
- Retric 3y ago
  Just the reverse, you discourage adoption by turning a currency into an investment. If bitcoins had constant or decreasing value through time then people would be more willing to trade them. This is why deflation is so economically dangerous. It did encourage mining, but that doesn’t driving long term adoption and has nearly purely negative consequences. The ideal long term strategy for adoption would have mining to provide a consistent reward in real terms over a long timeframe, low costs and high transaction volumes, and for unused accounts to be charged a small fee. Bitcoin failed all of those which is why it’s never had significant adoption as a currency.
  - toenail 3y ago
    > Bitcoin failed all of those which is why it’s never had significant adoption as a currency. Yet there is no more successful digital currency on the planet. If you think you can make one with "better" rules please go ahead! > This is why deflation is so economically dangerous. The idea that inflation and constant spending are the only thing that makes an economy work is faith-based, and bitcoin was intentionally not started that way. So far I'd say it has worked quite well.
    - Retric 3y ago
      > is faith based Back when people used precious metals for currency many different economies would all be tied to the same shifts in value. I don’t know all the details but there’s real world support for significant deflation being detrimental not just theory. That said trivial levels of deflation aren’t harmful, but bitcoin had very extreme deflation.
      - toenail 3y ago
        Bitcoin has inflation at the moment. > I don’t know all the details but there’s real world support for significant deflation being detrimental not just theory. The problem is that the "real world support" is usually taken from fiat money economies that are entirely built on inflation, and for historical examples there usually was an economic crisis at the same time that was accompanied by deflation. It's hardly conclusive.
        Retric 3y ago
        High levels of inflation are also harmful. +/- ~0.3% per month is fine, outside of that range and you’re hurting adoption. > an economic crisis at the time In non fiat currencies you also get deflation from economic growth. Where you can study the effect is when the growth occurs outside of a given economy. Again, outside of my expertise it’s just something I have read.
  - gonehome 3y ago
    It's a very good store of value/gold analog and a not so great currency. That's fine though - if you have something that holds value you can move it into whatever currency exists when you need to do that.
infecto 3y ago
Is bitcoin a currency or investment? I would say neither but interesting to see it getting lumped in with investments.
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  Bitcoin is Schrödinger’s asset, in the sense that it is whatever it needs to be to counter the latest criticisms from non-believers. For example, if you say that bitcoin has 7 tps and even with lightning will take decades to onboard everyone, it will become a store of value that you are supposed to buy and hold for long term. But if you point out how bitcoin has crazy volatility, it may become a currency that you don’t hold, just use to transact.
  - infecto 3y ago
    I am happy that you understood where I was going with this. People whip up whatever they need it to be to make an argument. Sometimes we call it a currency because we can use it to buy things, other times its an investment. To reliably fit in either of those buckets is exclusive. To be a currency you need to be a store of value that is not fluctuation a lot, this means its a terrible investment vehicle.
- toenail 3y ago
  You're right, bitcoin is something entirely new, and we don't know the future, so we don't know what it will end up being.
  - paulryanrogers 3y ago
    Entirely new is a stretch. And haven't we reached the end? It's not broadly useful nor sustainable nor trustworthy.
    - almost_usual 3y ago
      I’d argue it’s useful for many people who live in countries that suffer from hyperinflation.
kranke155 3y ago
What about kids who weren’t able or had any capital to invest at the time Bitcoin was doing high returns ? They will just be born poor and die poor I suppose ?
- toenail 3y ago
  Not sure why you expect bitcoin to do "high returns" for everybody, that was never a promise and never a goal. Are you going to argue that stocks are not fair because you personally didn't buy the stocks with the best returns? Bitcoin only makes one relevant promise: There will only be 21 million. And that means that the people who are born poor get a chance at building wealth by not having the government constantly reduce the value of their money. Bitcoin is an escape from the system that keeps people poor.
  - kjkjadksj 3y ago
    You could say as much for beanie babies too. They will be limited so therefore valuable. Forget a hundred years from now that people might not see any value at all in a plush doll, or some runescape gp, or bitcoin. Meanwhile, something like iron or gold has held value for all of human history.
    - toenail 3y ago
      Scarcity alone does not make something valuable, things that are useful have value. Happy to clear that up.

aniforprez 3y ago

GP said nothing about bitcoin claiming to be anything. They're directly quoting the article

toenail 3y ago
Your point being?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
tvink 3y ago
But they seem to translate a quote that posits someone would be altruistic to create a monetary system without enriching themselves, to "bitcoin is an altruistic system" and then shoot down that statement rather than what the quote is saying.

gonehome 3y ago

Plus rewarding early miners creative the incentive structure more likely to drive adoption.

Retric 3y ago
Just the reverse, you discourage adoption by turning a currency into an investment. If bitcoins had constant or decreasing value through time then people would be more willing to trade them. This is why deflation is so economically dangerous. It did encourage mining, but that doesn’t driving long term adoption and has nearly purely negative consequences. The ideal long term strategy for adoption would have mining to provide a consistent reward in real terms over a long timeframe, low costs and high transaction volumes, and for unused accounts to be charged a small fee. Bitcoin failed all of those which is why it’s never had significant adoption as a currency.
- toenail 3y ago
  > Bitcoin failed all of those which is why it’s never had significant adoption as a currency. Yet there is no more successful digital currency on the planet. If you think you can make one with "better" rules please go ahead! > This is why deflation is so economically dangerous. The idea that inflation and constant spending are the only thing that makes an economy work is faith-based, and bitcoin was intentionally not started that way. So far I'd say it has worked quite well.
  - Retric 3y ago
    > is faith based Back when people used precious metals for currency many different economies would all be tied to the same shifts in value. I don’t know all the details but there’s real world support for significant deflation being detrimental not just theory. That said trivial levels of deflation aren’t harmful, but bitcoin had very extreme deflation.
    - toenail 3y ago
      Bitcoin has inflation at the moment. > I don’t know all the details but there’s real world support for significant deflation being detrimental not just theory. The problem is that the "real world support" is usually taken from fiat money economies that are entirely built on inflation, and for historical examples there usually was an economic crisis at the same time that was accompanied by deflation. It's hardly conclusive.
      - Retric 3y ago
        High levels of inflation are also harmful. +/- ~0.3% per month is fine, outside of that range and you’re hurting adoption. > an economic crisis at the time In non fiat currencies you also get deflation from economic growth. Where you can study the effect is when the growth occurs outside of a given economy. Again, outside of my expertise it’s just something I have read.
- gonehome 3y ago
  It's a very good store of value/gold analog and a not so great currency. That's fine though - if you have something that holds value you can move it into whatever currency exists when you need to do that.

infecto 3y ago

Is bitcoin a currency or investment? I would say neither but interesting to see it getting lumped in with investments.

polygamous_bat 3y ago
Bitcoin is Schrödinger’s asset, in the sense that it is whatever it needs to be to counter the latest criticisms from non-believers. For example, if you say that bitcoin has 7 tps and even with lightning will take decades to onboard everyone, it will become a store of value that you are supposed to buy and hold for long term. But if you point out how bitcoin has crazy volatility, it may become a currency that you don’t hold, just use to transact.
- infecto 3y ago
  I am happy that you understood where I was going with this. People whip up whatever they need it to be to make an argument. Sometimes we call it a currency because we can use it to buy things, other times its an investment. To reliably fit in either of those buckets is exclusive. To be a currency you need to be a store of value that is not fluctuation a lot, this means its a terrible investment vehicle.
toenail 3y ago
You're right, bitcoin is something entirely new, and we don't know the future, so we don't know what it will end up being.
- paulryanrogers 3y ago
  Entirely new is a stretch. And haven't we reached the end? It's not broadly useful nor sustainable nor trustworthy.
  - almost_usual 3y ago
    I’d argue it’s useful for many people who live in countries that suffer from hyperinflation.

kranke155 3y ago

What about kids who weren’t able or had any capital to invest at the time Bitcoin was doing high returns ? They will just be born poor and die poor I suppose ?

toenail 3y ago
Not sure why you expect bitcoin to do "high returns" for everybody, that was never a promise and never a goal. Are you going to argue that stocks are not fair because you personally didn't buy the stocks with the best returns? Bitcoin only makes one relevant promise: There will only be 21 million. And that means that the people who are born poor get a chance at building wealth by not having the government constantly reduce the value of their money. Bitcoin is an escape from the system that keeps people poor.
- kjkjadksj 3y ago
  You could say as much for beanie babies too. They will be limited so therefore valuable. Forget a hundred years from now that people might not see any value at all in a plush doll, or some runescape gp, or bitcoin. Meanwhile, something like iron or gold has held value for all of human history.
  - toenail 3y ago
    Scarcity alone does not make something valuable, things that are useful have value. Happy to clear that up.