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You've gotten a wrong impression that Israeli leaders want to end the entire Palestinian ethnicity. That's just... not true. It's demonstrably not true in that

by edanm 3y ago

You've gotten a wrong impression that Israeli leaders want to end the entire Palestinian ethnicity. That's just... not true. It's demonstrably not true in that Israel has, at various times, agreed to peace deals that would create a two-state solution (which would mean there being a Palestinian state). These deals were rejected by the Palestinians for various reasons. In fact, the government of Gaza, which is Hamas, in contrast with Israel, both says that it wants to destroy Israel and kill all Jews, and also acts on it. So it's the Palestinian side (or at least Gaza's currently-elected leaders) that are trying to destroy the Israeli state. > if you were in the Palestinian position — what you would do. I'd try, to my best ability, to get decent leaders instead of Hamas, who would pursue the betterment of my people and pursue peace. Hamas spends so much of its resources on war with Israel, if they spend more of those resources on its own citizens, they would both be better off, and peace would happen far more quickly.

enterprise_cog 3y ago
Which side has forced the other into a 25x5 mile strip of land? What country doesn’t allow that land to be properly built out? Which country restricts movement, cut off food and water, disabled electricity, and has blocked most aid from entering Gaza? That’s Israel in case you aren’t sure. And those are acts of genocide. So why are you saying Israel doesn’t act on it?
- edanm 3y ago
  First of all, I disagree with your list of things above. But for now, let's focus on this: > And those are acts of genocide. No, those aren't. Just in case I was wrong about this, I went and checked the UN's definition of genocide: > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians using any of the above. Their numbers have doubled during the time Israel is around. Which of the things Israel is doing is a genocide as per this definition? Back to your "list of things Israel does", saying that Israel has "forced" Palestinians into a 25x5 mile strip of land is inaccurate. What do you mean forced? This is their land. Israel withdrew from it, they govern it themselves, in what way were they "forced" into it? And in what way does Israel not allow that land to be built out? Hamas isn't exactly big on improving the land, preferring to use their resources to kill Israelis, but that's no the fault of Israel. Again, Israel withdrew from that land and doesn't govern it! They can build things (and have, actually).
  - enterprise_cog 3y ago
    How is not allowing food, water, and aid into Gaza not Israel doing those things? How is the indiscriminate bombings of Gaza not any of those things? You are just denying reality to suit your point. That’s their land? Are you kidding? The entirety of what is called Israel now is their land, along with fellow Jews. Do you think people haven’t read the history of the area? To even say that shows an incredible ignorance of the history of the area. As to your last point, Israel controls what goes in Gaza. They limit the amount of concrete so they can’t build, for example. They control water, Palestinians have to get a permit to build water infrastructure from the Israeli government. They rarely grant them. Rain catchers set up by Palestinians are destroyed by the IDF or settlers. Not to mention, anything they do actually build ends up bombed by the Israelis. To say they don’t like to build things is, once again, an incredible display of ignorance. In fact, since your whole response is filled with such absurdly one sided takes that ignore reality, I have to assume you are trolling.
    - edanm 3y ago
      > In fact, since your whole response is filled with such absurdly one sided takes that ignore reality, I have to assume you are trolling. I'm not trolling. I simply disagree with you (and think you're wrong on a bunch of facts). If every time someone disagrees with you or presents another point of view, you think they're trolling, that might explain why you continue to be wrong. I'm going to try to engage as honestly as I can and take you completely at face value, and ask real questions, and I urge you to please do the same. > How is not allowing food, water, and aid into Gaza not Israel doing those things? How is the indiscriminate bombings of Gaza not any of those things? You are just denying reality to suit your point. Neither of these things are happening, despite what a lot of people claim. But let's play devil's advocate for a minute and say, yes, Israel is doing these things - why aren't there hundreds of thousands of starving Palestinians? Why aren't there hundreds of thousands of dead Palestinian civilians by the supposedly indiscriminate Israeli bombings? I'm totally serious in asking this. You're making a factual claim about the world, which if I understand it correctly, is that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians. I'm claiming your facts are wrong. The best way to settle such disagreements is with proof and data. So let's see - how many Palestinians have died in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? According to the UN site listing casualties, between 2008 and September 2023 (not including the current conflict), there were ~6,400 casualties. Of these, ~4,000 were civilians. [1] All deaths are regrettable. I sincerely believe that. I wish that number were 0. But do you honestly think that 4,000 dead civilians is evidence of Israel trying to commit genocide? Hamas literally killed a quarter of that number of Israelis in half a day two weeks ago! For reference, the number of casualties during the war in Afghanistan, 2001-2021 (so a comparable span of years) - 176k. 49k civilians. [2] So the US has killed literally 12 times more civilians in Afghanistan. Is the US trying to cause an Afghani genocide? For even more reference, number of people killed in the Syrian civil war - 300k civilians. Every death is a tragedy, especially of civilians. But these numbers aren't even close to being in the same ballpark! How can you honestly, with a straight face, say that Israel is trying to cause a genocide? > That’s their land? Are you kidding? The entirety of what is called Israel now is their land, along with fellow Jews. Do you think people haven’t read the history of the area? To even say that shows an incredible ignorance of the history of the area. And here's the rub. You're saying (if I parsed it correctly) that all of Israel should actually belong to the Palestinians. Ok. I think that's a pretty ridiculous point of view to have, given the actual history of the region, given that Israel was actually voted to have that land by the UN, which is a far more peaceful way of getting land than, oh, just about every other country on Earth. That's the bottom line, that's why Israel can't have peace - because the precondition for peace among many people seems to be "you, Israel, have to disappear, and we're not very bothered what happens to the people currently living there". [1] https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war...
mseidl 3y ago
Israel supported hamas till 2020. Also the Bush in 2006 backed a coup for hamas. The west bank is the two state solution and it's horrible for palestinians. Even after the olso accords the number of illegal settlements went from 120k to 950k > In fact, the government of Gaza, which is Hamas, in contrast with Israel, both says that it wants to destroy Israel and kill all Jews, and also acts on it. So it's the Palestinian side (or at least Gaza's currently-elected leaders) that are trying to destroy the Israeli state. Hamas changed it's deal to be the emancipation of Palestine. Remember in front of the UN showed a map of israel without palestinians. the new government is so right wing and borderline facist. this video about the itamar ben gvir guy who was labeled as a terrorist and was too extreme for the idf was in the government. It shows some shit. https://youtu.be/OplM9oNmTfQ https://youtu.be/OplM9oNmTfQ
- edanm 3y ago
  > The west bank is the two state solution and it's horrible for palestinians. Even after the olso accords the number of illegal settlements went from 120k to 950k It's not actually a two-state solution as it isn't a completely independent state. I'm definitely against the settlements though. I'd much prefer an actual peace be reached, official borders agreed upon, and therefore the end of settelments. As for Ben Gvir, I agree - he is horrible. He isn't the entire government, but he definitely represents a fringe (though still far too large) point of view. That said, Israeli have been protesting this government for a year, for this among other reasons. And like I said, you have to look at actions, not just at the rhetoric, horrible as the rheotric might be. (And again, I hate Ben Gvir and think it's a travesty he's part of the government. If he were the whole of the government, and the government actually carried out these kinds of actions on Palestinians, then we'd be in a similar situation as Gazans are in right now.)
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  >Hamas changed it's deal to be the emancipation of Palestine. Don't write in euphemisms. Their aim is the destruction of Israel and the expulsion or slaughter of all Jews. For a start... Supporting them is a criminal offence in a number of countries for a very good reason. So do say if that is what you support so that everything is crystal clear.

by edanm 3y ago

enterprise_cog 3y ago

Which side has forced the other into a 25x5 mile strip of land? What country doesn’t allow that land to be properly built out? Which country restricts movement, cut off food and water, disabled electricity, and has blocked most aid from entering Gaza? That’s Israel in case you aren’t sure. And those are acts of genocide. So why are you saying Israel doesn’t act on it?

edanm 3y ago
First of all, I disagree with your list of things above. But for now, let's focus on this: > And those are acts of genocide. No, those aren't. Just in case I was wrong about this, I went and checked the UN's definition of genocide: > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians using any of the above. Their numbers have doubled during the time Israel is around. Which of the things Israel is doing is a genocide as per this definition? Back to your "list of things Israel does", saying that Israel has "forced" Palestinians into a 25x5 mile strip of land is inaccurate. What do you mean forced? This is their land. Israel withdrew from it, they govern it themselves, in what way were they "forced" into it? And in what way does Israel not allow that land to be built out? Hamas isn't exactly big on improving the land, preferring to use their resources to kill Israelis, but that's no the fault of Israel. Again, Israel withdrew from that land and doesn't govern it! They can build things (and have, actually).
- enterprise_cog 3y ago
  How is not allowing food, water, and aid into Gaza not Israel doing those things? How is the indiscriminate bombings of Gaza not any of those things? You are just denying reality to suit your point. That’s their land? Are you kidding? The entirety of what is called Israel now is their land, along with fellow Jews. Do you think people haven’t read the history of the area? To even say that shows an incredible ignorance of the history of the area. As to your last point, Israel controls what goes in Gaza. They limit the amount of concrete so they can’t build, for example. They control water, Palestinians have to get a permit to build water infrastructure from the Israeli government. They rarely grant them. Rain catchers set up by Palestinians are destroyed by the IDF or settlers. Not to mention, anything they do actually build ends up bombed by the Israelis. To say they don’t like to build things is, once again, an incredible display of ignorance. In fact, since your whole response is filled with such absurdly one sided takes that ignore reality, I have to assume you are trolling.
  - edanm 3y ago
    > In fact, since your whole response is filled with such absurdly one sided takes that ignore reality, I have to assume you are trolling. I'm not trolling. I simply disagree with you (and think you're wrong on a bunch of facts). If every time someone disagrees with you or presents another point of view, you think they're trolling, that might explain why you continue to be wrong. I'm going to try to engage as honestly as I can and take you completely at face value, and ask real questions, and I urge you to please do the same. > How is not allowing food, water, and aid into Gaza not Israel doing those things? How is the indiscriminate bombings of Gaza not any of those things? You are just denying reality to suit your point. Neither of these things are happening, despite what a lot of people claim. But let's play devil's advocate for a minute and say, yes, Israel is doing these things - why aren't there hundreds of thousands of starving Palestinians? Why aren't there hundreds of thousands of dead Palestinian civilians by the supposedly indiscriminate Israeli bombings? I'm totally serious in asking this. You're making a factual claim about the world, which if I understand it correctly, is that Israel is committing genocide against the Palestinians. I'm claiming your facts are wrong. The best way to settle such disagreements is with proof and data. So let's see - how many Palestinians have died in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? According to the UN site listing casualties, between 2008 and September 2023 (not including the current conflict), there were ~6,400 casualties. Of these, ~4,000 were civilians. [1] All deaths are regrettable. I sincerely believe that. I wish that number were 0. But do you honestly think that 4,000 dead civilians is evidence of Israel trying to commit genocide? Hamas literally killed a quarter of that number of Israelis in half a day two weeks ago! For reference, the number of casualties during the war in Afghanistan, 2001-2021 (so a comparable span of years) - 176k. 49k civilians. [2] So the US has killed literally 12 times more civilians in Afghanistan. Is the US trying to cause an Afghani genocide? For even more reference, number of people killed in the Syrian civil war - 300k civilians. Every death is a tragedy, especially of civilians. But these numbers aren't even close to being in the same ballpark! How can you honestly, with a straight face, say that Israel is trying to cause a genocide? > That’s their land? Are you kidding? The entirety of what is called Israel now is their land, along with fellow Jews. Do you think people haven’t read the history of the area? To even say that shows an incredible ignorance of the history of the area. And here's the rub. You're saying (if I parsed it correctly) that all of Israel should actually belong to the Palestinians. Ok. I think that's a pretty ridiculous point of view to have, given the actual history of the region, given that Israel was actually voted to have that land by the UN, which is a far more peaceful way of getting land than, oh, just about every other country on Earth. That's the bottom line, that's why Israel can't have peace - because the precondition for peace among many people seems to be "you, Israel, have to disappear, and we're not very bothered what happens to the people currently living there". [1] https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war_in_Afghanistan_(2001%E2%80%932021) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_in_the_war...

mseidl 3y ago

Israel supported hamas till 2020. Also the Bush in 2006 backed a coup for hamas. The west bank is the two state solution and it's horrible for palestinians. Even after the olso accords the number of illegal settlements went from 120k to 950k > In fact, the government of Gaza, which is Hamas, in contrast with Israel, both says that it wants to destroy Israel and kill all Jews, and also acts on it. So it's the Palestinian side (or at least Gaza's currently-elected leaders) that are trying to destroy the Israeli state. Hamas changed it's deal to be the emancipation of Palestine. Remember in front of the UN showed a map of israel without palestinians. the new government is so right wing and borderline facist. this video about the itamar ben gvir guy who was labeled as a terrorist and was too extreme for the idf was in the government. It shows some shit. https://youtu.be/OplM9oNmTfQ https://youtu.be/OplM9oNmTfQ

edanm 3y ago
> The west bank is the two state solution and it's horrible for palestinians. Even after the olso accords the number of illegal settlements went from 120k to 950k It's not actually a two-state solution as it isn't a completely independent state. I'm definitely against the settlements though. I'd much prefer an actual peace be reached, official borders agreed upon, and therefore the end of settelments. As for Ben Gvir, I agree - he is horrible. He isn't the entire government, but he definitely represents a fringe (though still far too large) point of view. That said, Israeli have been protesting this government for a year, for this among other reasons. And like I said, you have to look at actions, not just at the rhetoric, horrible as the rheotric might be. (And again, I hate Ben Gvir and think it's a travesty he's part of the government. If he were the whole of the government, and the government actually carried out these kinds of actions on Palestinians, then we'd be in a similar situation as Gazans are in right now.)
mytailorisrich 3y ago
>Hamas changed it's deal to be the emancipation of Palestine. Don't write in euphemisms. Their aim is the destruction of Israel and the expulsion or slaughter of all Jews. For a start... Supporting them is a criminal offence in a number of countries for a very good reason. So do say if that is what you support so that everything is crystal clear.