5 ms·

Since English "Columbia" has the same meaning as Spanish "Colombia" (namely something like "Columbian (land)"/"(land) of Columbus"), I'm curious why the former

by schoen 3y ago

Since English "Columbia" has the same meaning as Spanish "Colombia" (namely something like "Columbian (land)"/"(land) of Columbus"), I'm curious why the former didn't ultimately end up being considered "the English version" of the latter. In some other cases we have English names that are considered correct ways to refer to foreign locations (e.g. Deutschland → Germany, Köln → Cologne, Roma → Rome, Warszawa → Warsaw, Italia → Italy, España → Spain, Lisboa → Lisbon, México → Mexico, Perú → Peru, Brasil → Brazil), which are considered perfectly normal, although some are contested (Türkiye → Turkey, Côte d'Ivoire → Ivory Coast). I agree that this didn't happen in the case of the English name of Colombia, and that the English name of Colombia is "Colombia", not "Columbia", but again I wonder why this didn't end up being regarded as a "translation" of the country's name.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago
Similarly, one could wonder why Ecuador is Ecuador in English, and was never anglicized to Equator. The insistence of the leadership of the “Ivory Coast” that the country be called “Côte d’Ivoire” even in English, does seem to have been broadly successful. I rarely see “Ivory Coast” in English-language scholarship or in travel resources these days. I’m a bit surprised that Wikipedia still uses the English version throughout its article on the country.
- smcl 3y ago
  I don't know if there's been that much success in pushing Côte d’Ivoire. I imagine if it is used at all in English-language countries, it's copy-pasted due to the "ô" not being easily accessible on English keyboard layouts. In spoken English I haven't heard anyone I know say "Côte d’Ivoire" and, being into football and having football-loving friends from Ghana and Gambia (countries in the same region who cannot be accused of being ignorant Brits or Americans), there's been plenty of opportunities. Same goes for Türkiye/Turkey - those umlauts and the "toor-kee-ye" pronunciation will scare off most users of English, who will fall back to the more familiar "Turkey". "Czechia" doesn't even have the problem of diacritics and it's still not that widespread. I find it a bit awkward and don't use it even though I live here. Old habits die hard and, whether they like it or not, Ivory Coast, Turkey, Czechia etc are gonna be around for a while.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > "Czechia" doesn't even have the problem of diacritics and it's still not that widespread. Not too long ago a British politician was unironically suggesting a post-Brexit trade deal with "Czechoslovakia". I don't know how much of that was mere incompetence in his case, but in general at least some of it will be old habits dying hard.
    - smcl 3y ago
      Incompetence during the Brexit negotiations?! Surely not!
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Easy on a Mac. Just press the base letter for a few seconds, and a small pop up will appear and you enter the number (one digit) corresponding to the variant you want. On iOS it’s similar but even easier. Short press, then drag you finger to the variant. Õōøœóòöô. Way easier than alt codes on windows. I do a bit of work in music engraving software and you run into needing to type things like dètaché.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - smcl 3y ago
      You and I know this. Your average person on the street doesn’t though.
      - TylerE 3y ago
        I figure a good chunk of HN doesn't. That's why I explained it.
        smcl 3y ago
        Ah fair, I thought you were suggesting that typing the official name was no big deal, rather than just suggesting something helpful for macOS/iOS users.
ben_w 3y ago
> Warszawa → Warsaw It took years of living in Berlin to realise that "Warschau" was the German for Warsaw. https://maps.app.goo.gl/4epDsvkKf42jXhG47?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/4epDsvkKf42jXhG47?g_st=ic
- tgaj 3y ago
  Other tricky one - Polish "Gdańsk" is "Danzig" in German
  - PeterisP 3y ago
    Those sound much more similar than their spelling looks.
    - tgaj 3y ago
      Yeah, if someone would pronounce "Gdańsk" with silent "G" then that would be true. But someone fluent in Polish would pronounce "G-dańsk" with clear "gh".
toyg 3y ago
Anglicised names are historically grandfathered. The post-colonial consensus, pushed by emerging powers (China etc), is that all topological names should be equally maintained in the source language. The classic example is Peking, which is now called Beijing everywhere. As such, progress should mean even historical names are reverted to what current inhabitants call them, i.e. we should all visit Firenze, not Florence.
- zirgs 3y ago
  > The classic example is Peking, which is now called Beijing everywhere. It's still called Peking in many other languages.

by schoen 3y ago

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

Similarly, one could wonder why Ecuador is Ecuador in English, and was never anglicized to Equator. The insistence of the leadership of the “Ivory Coast” that the country be called “Côte d’Ivoire” even in English, does seem to have been broadly successful. I rarely see “Ivory Coast” in English-language scholarship or in travel resources these days. I’m a bit surprised that Wikipedia still uses the English version throughout its article on the country.

smcl 3y ago
I don't know if there's been that much success in pushing Côte d’Ivoire. I imagine if it is used at all in English-language countries, it's copy-pasted due to the "ô" not being easily accessible on English keyboard layouts. In spoken English I haven't heard anyone I know say "Côte d’Ivoire" and, being into football and having football-loving friends from Ghana and Gambia (countries in the same region who cannot be accused of being ignorant Brits or Americans), there's been plenty of opportunities. Same goes for Türkiye/Turkey - those umlauts and the "toor-kee-ye" pronunciation will scare off most users of English, who will fall back to the more familiar "Turkey". "Czechia" doesn't even have the problem of diacritics and it's still not that widespread. I find it a bit awkward and don't use it even though I live here. Old habits die hard and, whether they like it or not, Ivory Coast, Turkey, Czechia etc are gonna be around for a while.
- ben_w 3y ago
  > "Czechia" doesn't even have the problem of diacritics and it's still not that widespread. Not too long ago a British politician was unironically suggesting a post-Brexit trade deal with "Czechoslovakia". I don't know how much of that was mere incompetence in his case, but in general at least some of it will be old habits dying hard.
  - smcl 3y ago
    Incompetence during the Brexit negotiations?! Surely not!
- TylerE 3y ago
  Easy on a Mac. Just press the base letter for a few seconds, and a small pop up will appear and you enter the number (one digit) corresponding to the variant you want. On iOS it’s similar but even easier. Short press, then drag you finger to the variant. Õōøœóòöô. Way easier than alt codes on windows. I do a bit of work in music engraving software and you run into needing to type things like dètaché.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - smcl 3y ago
    You and I know this. Your average person on the street doesn’t though.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      I figure a good chunk of HN doesn't. That's why I explained it.
      - smcl 3y ago
        Ah fair, I thought you were suggesting that typing the official name was no big deal, rather than just suggesting something helpful for macOS/iOS users.

ben_w 3y ago

> Warszawa → Warsaw It took years of living in Berlin to realise that "Warschau" was the German for Warsaw. https://maps.app.goo.gl/4epDsvkKf42jXhG47?g_st=ic https://maps.app.goo.gl/4epDsvkKf42jXhG47?g_st=ic

tgaj 3y ago
Other tricky one - Polish "Gdańsk" is "Danzig" in German
- PeterisP 3y ago
  Those sound much more similar than their spelling looks.
  - tgaj 3y ago
    Yeah, if someone would pronounce "Gdańsk" with silent "G" then that would be true. But someone fluent in Polish would pronounce "G-dańsk" with clear "gh".

toyg 3y ago

Anglicised names are historically grandfathered. The post-colonial consensus, pushed by emerging powers (China etc), is that all topological names should be equally maintained in the source language. The classic example is Peking, which is now called Beijing everywhere. As such, progress should mean even historical names are reverted to what current inhabitants call them, i.e. we should all visit Firenze, not Florence.

zirgs 3y ago
> The classic example is Peking, which is now called Beijing everywhere. It's still called Peking in many other languages.