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> see Keen, Walshe and Sutton Have you seen them? I won't pretend to have read Walshe and Sutton, but from my cursory understanding of their criticism it's tha

> see Keen, Walshe and Sutton Have you seen them? I won't pretend to have read Walshe and Sutton, but from my cursory understanding of their criticism it's that Pascoe has conflated all indigenous tribes across the continent (not all engage directly in planting), and they used means of cultivating the land that were lower effort (harnessing fire and self-seeding) but still effective (which is much in sympathy with Pascoe's thesis). It certainly doesn't provide evidence that indigenous people didn't understand seeds

jojobas 3y ago
So your conjecture is that they did understand seeds, but refused to use them and provide themselves with a relatively care-free way to not die of hunger en masse?
- h0l0cube 3y ago
  I’ll suggest again to read Guns, Gerns, and Steel. An agricultural revolution is predicated on fertile lands, high yield crops, domestication of docile animals (both for consumption and as beasts of burden), etc. then if those environmental factors are aligned, tools can be made to exploit them. Australia is a mostly arid country, it took the import of overseas animals and crops before western agriculture emerged, but up to that point indigenous Australians had the means to provide for themselves. From our best understanding of pre colonial life, famine wasn’t a feature of it. Funnily enough it’s post agricultural societies that often died of famine because they enabled huge populations in cities and shifting climate would cause several years of floods and droughts at infrequent and irregular intervals, and at such scale that it couldn’t be planned for by early societies (and maybe we might find out our modern global one still has this flaw)
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Maori still managed it without much of the above just next door. Australian lands are so fertile that it half Asia with wheat and meat. Just wasn't their time. >From our best understanding of pre colonial life, famine wasn’t a feature of it. Yes it was. Killing over food theft, cannibalism and general hardship are a staple of Aboriginal stories. Agriculture, even early transport, power structures and communication systems made it possible to store and redistribute excess food. A single very dry season in a particular part of Australia meant its inhabitants would have to feed on someone else's land or die trying. Aboriginals are also way more susceptible to obesity and type 2 diabetes than Europeans, basically lacking European adaptations to abundant food.
    - h0l0cube 3y ago
      > without much of the above Have you even visited Australia, and even slightly outside its cities? And then have you visited New Zealand? To have done so and still believe they are equally fertile would require some incredible cognitive dissonance. > Australian lands are so fertile that it half Asia with wheat and meat Modern agriculture is very different to ancient agriculture. We didn't have combine harvesters, high-yield evolved (or GMO) crops, fuel-driven pumps, bores that can collect deep group water, tractors to build irrigation and dams etc. Not sure how you could overlook any of this. > staple of Aboriginal stories Citations needed. Won't pretend I'm an expert on this, but I'll wager you aren't either. The risk of famine increases with population, especially a population that isn't self-sufficient. It's a post-agricultural phenomenon, which is not to say a tribe couldn't starve, but it's much harder. There's much evidence to say that cooperation, trade, and intermarriage with neighboring was a significant part of indigenous societies, likely borne out of necessity. > A single very dry season in a particular part of Australia meant its inhabitants would have to feed on someone else's land or die trying. Dry seasons were less of a problem than you might think, as indigenous people knew where all the water holes were, and could read the landscape^ to know where to dig to get to water. Not enough for expansive agriculture, but certainly enough to survive in one of the harshest environments in the world. ^ A common painting for central Australian tribes is the 'seed story' where they observe that ants have collected seeds to a location which reveal the location of a 'soakage'. Digging in this area, water can be found. > way more susceptible to obesity and type 2 Any scientific consensus on this actually being a thing? I ask rhetorically. There's no point arguing against motivated reasoning. I'm done here. Feel free to have the last word.
      - jojobas 3y ago
        I live in Australia and go hunting every few weeks, I've also been to NZ. A lot of land in the middle of Au is sure a barren desert, but so is a lot of land in the Middle East. Australia was never short on food ever since it started farming, way before any kind of harvesters, deeps wells or GMO crops. Here's to get you started on the Dreamtime stories: https://www.kullillaart.com.au/dreamtime-stories/Piggi-Billa-the-Echidna https://www.kullillaart.com.au/dreamtime-stories/Piggi-Billa... https://homelearningatikps.weebly.com/uploads/3/7/6/9/37697917/how_the_turtle_got_its_shell__view_.pdf https://homelearningatikps.weebly.com/uploads/3/7/6/9/376979... https://www.artistwd.com/joyzine/australia/dreaming/goanna.php https://www.artistwd.com/joyzine/australia/dreaming/goanna.p... https://www.kullillaart.com.au/dreamtime-stories/Mundiba-and-the-Honey https://www.kullillaart.com.au/dreamtime-stories/Mundiba-and... Here's to type 2 diabetes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384914/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384914/ >Dry seasons were less of a problem than you might think I'm not talking surviving a summer, I'm talking surviving 1997-2009 of continuous driest years on record over huge areas.

jojobas 3y ago

So your conjecture is that they did understand seeds, but refused to use them and provide themselves with a relatively care-free way to not die of hunger en masse?

h0l0cube 3y ago
I’ll suggest again to read Guns, Gerns, and Steel. An agricultural revolution is predicated on fertile lands, high yield crops, domestication of docile animals (both for consumption and as beasts of burden), etc. then if those environmental factors are aligned, tools can be made to exploit them. Australia is a mostly arid country, it took the import of overseas animals and crops before western agriculture emerged, but up to that point indigenous Australians had the means to provide for themselves. From our best understanding of pre colonial life, famine wasn’t a feature of it. Funnily enough it’s post agricultural societies that often died of famine because they enabled huge populations in cities and shifting climate would cause several years of floods and droughts at infrequent and irregular intervals, and at such scale that it couldn’t be planned for by early societies (and maybe we might find out our modern global one still has this flaw)
- jojobas 3y ago
  Maori still managed it without much of the above just next door. Australian lands are so fertile that it half Asia with wheat and meat. Just wasn't their time. >From our best understanding of pre colonial life, famine wasn’t a feature of it. Yes it was. Killing over food theft, cannibalism and general hardship are a staple of Aboriginal stories. Agriculture, even early transport, power structures and communication systems made it possible to store and redistribute excess food. A single very dry season in a particular part of Australia meant its inhabitants would have to feed on someone else's land or die trying. Aboriginals are also way more susceptible to obesity and type 2 diabetes than Europeans, basically lacking European adaptations to abundant food.
  - h0l0cube 3y ago
    > without much of the above Have you even visited Australia, and even slightly outside its cities? And then have you visited New Zealand? To have done so and still believe they are equally fertile would require some incredible cognitive dissonance. > Australian lands are so fertile that it half Asia with wheat and meat Modern agriculture is very different to ancient agriculture. We didn't have combine harvesters, high-yield evolved (or GMO) crops, fuel-driven pumps, bores that can collect deep group water, tractors to build irrigation and dams etc. Not sure how you could overlook any of this. > staple of Aboriginal stories Citations needed. Won't pretend I'm an expert on this, but I'll wager you aren't either. The risk of famine increases with population, especially a population that isn't self-sufficient. It's a post-agricultural phenomenon, which is not to say a tribe couldn't starve, but it's much harder. There's much evidence to say that cooperation, trade, and intermarriage with neighboring was a significant part of indigenous societies, likely borne out of necessity. > A single very dry season in a particular part of Australia meant its inhabitants would have to feed on someone else's land or die trying. Dry seasons were less of a problem than you might think, as indigenous people knew where all the water holes were, and could read the landscape^ to know where to dig to get to water. Not enough for expansive agriculture, but certainly enough to survive in one of the harshest environments in the world. ^ A common painting for central Australian tribes is the 'seed story' where they observe that ants have collected seeds to a location which reveal the location of a 'soakage'. Digging in this area, water can be found. > way more susceptible to obesity and type 2 Any scientific consensus on this actually being a thing? I ask rhetorically. There's no point arguing against motivated reasoning. I'm done here. Feel free to have the last word.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      I live in Australia and go hunting every few weeks, I've also been to NZ. A lot of land in the middle of Au is sure a barren desert, but so is a lot of land in the Middle East. Australia was never short on food ever since it started farming, way before any kind of harvesters, deeps wells or GMO crops. Here's to get you started on the Dreamtime stories: https://www.kullillaart.com.au/dreamtime-stories/Piggi-Billa-the-Echidna https://www.kullillaart.com.au/dreamtime-stories/Piggi-Billa... https://homelearningatikps.weebly.com/uploads/3/7/6/9/37697917/how_the_turtle_got_its_shell__view_.pdf https://homelearningatikps.weebly.com/uploads/3/7/6/9/376979... https://www.artistwd.com/joyzine/australia/dreaming/goanna.php https://www.artistwd.com/joyzine/australia/dreaming/goanna.p... https://www.kullillaart.com.au/dreamtime-stories/Mundiba-and-the-Honey https://www.kullillaart.com.au/dreamtime-stories/Mundiba-and... Here's to type 2 diabetes: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384914/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC384914/ >Dry seasons were less of a problem than you might think I'm not talking surviving a summer, I'm talking surviving 1997-2009 of continuous driest years on record over huge areas.