11 ms·

> “Panama and Colombia are the only neighboring nations on the globe without a single road link of even the most primitive kind.” It probably doesn't really co

by avar 3y ago

> “Panama and Colombia are the only neighboring nations on the globe without a single road link of even the most primitive kind.” It probably doesn't really count, but via OpenStreetMap I found that they have a joint military base that crosses their border. Everything's airlifted in, but on the photo in this article it looks like they've got at least a couple of ground vehicles there, and presumably tracks crossing the border: https://www.critica.com.pa/sucesos/no-existe-ninguna-base-militar-colombiana-en-panama-629540/amp https://www.critica.com.pa/sucesos/no-existe-ninguna-base-mi... More surprising to me is that on the Atlantic coast there's small towns on either side of the border seemingly without a road connection to other adjacent towns in their respective countries, as well as no cross-border connection (but there's a short hiking route): https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/8.6626/-77.3683 https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/8.6626/-77.3683 So it's not only an issue of crossing the swampland of the greater gap itself, but also the general underdevelopment of these countries.

aledalgrande 3y ago
There's also the issue that the almost impenetrable jungle is (govs say "was") used by drug trafficers and is dangerous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dari%C3%A9n_Gap#By_land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dari%C3%A9n_Gap#By_land
foota 3y ago
Maybe the coastal villages trade and travel by boat?
- rrr_oh_man 3y ago
  As people have done for (maybe dozens or even hundreds of) millennia.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  Exactly. The capital of Alaska is on the mainland, but only reachable by boat or air. This is the same thing as an island in practice. Pretty common for people to live on islands.
sinkasapa 3y ago
Panama is not necessarily that underdeveloped. It is a middle income country as is Colombia. Colombia due to its size and war is more uneven in the development of infrastructure. Having towns only accessible by boat is not necessarily a measure of the capacity for a country to build infrastructure. It isn't that uncommon for even a rich country to have areas accessible only by boat. Consider Jeanu, Alaska. Northern South America has some incredible challenges when in comes to terrain in general. The former columnist on Latin America at the Economist left it as his final thesis that this fact explains why the region is not more rich, despite a wealth of natural resources: https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2022/12/08/latin-america-is-in-a-mess-but-it-still-has-strengths https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2022/12/08/latin-amer... If one has ever been on the road between Villavicencio and Bogotá or passed through Tungurahua to Pastaza in Ecuador they can appreciate the difficulties that were overcome to build those roads. The rough terrain is one reason why less than 50 miles from modern cities in Ecuador there are still uncontacted native people. Given this northern South American baseline, if someone who knows the area says the terrain is unforgiving it is unforgiving.
- onetokeoverthe 3y ago
  [dead]
- Beijinger 3y ago
  "Colombia due to its size and war is more uneven in the development of infrastructure." Colombia has parts that remind you of Miami. I guess the drug money had to go somewhere :-) But Colombia IS an amazing place. Its culture, people, history, food and extremely diverse climate, it just overwhelms you. From the Caribbean, to the mountains to the Amazon, there are few places in the world with such a diverse climate. Medellin is the city of eternal spring. And Bogota, the district of Candelaria, I always found it a magical place. But I think nobody likes Bogota except of me. T-Shirts worn by the tourist information: "Colombia, the only risk is that you want to stay"
  - ReptileMan 3y ago
    I adore Bogota. And when you are on top of Montserrat and see the other peaks - as if you are in the Tolkien's Misty Mountains
Symbiote 3y ago
Boats are the most appropriate transport to connect those villages. You can even see a ferry service marked on OSM which stops at several towns. I've visited similar places, and there are generally water taxis that will take you where you need to go, deliver goods and post etc. Motorised land transport isn't useful in a small, isolated village surrounded by extremely rough terrain. Note the contour lines: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/8.66221/-77.36813&layers=P https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/8.66221/-77.36813&laye... The walking track is marked as steps on the Colombian side. It ascends about 50m in very roughly 100m distance, then descends equally steeply.
smallerfish 3y ago
"underdevelopment" is a loaded and also dominionist term. If we connected every human settlement on earth with roads, it's game over for the remaining natural reserves. Putting roads through the Amazon is what really accelerated development of agricultural territory.
- rayiner 3y ago
  No, it’s an accurate and objective term. All you’re saying is that we need to keep some places underdeveloped in order to protect the environment. Which is an entirely fair point.
  - smallerfish 3y ago
    It's not objective. "Under" implies some ideal state of development, and that anything under that threshold is deficient, which is subjective. That's why I say it's a loaded term.
    - PopAlongKid 3y ago
      What would work instead? Lesser-developed and greater-developed? Sub-developed and super-developed? >"Under" implies some ideal state of development No, not necessarily "ideal". It simply implies there is an average or median level, with instances that are lower and instances that are higher. >anything under that threshold is deficient I think if you wanted a loaded term, you'd use something more like "development-deficient" and "development-abundant".
      - smallerfish 3y ago
        Fair enough - I guess I should have been a little more precise: I really meant that "underdeveloped" has a specific meaning, rather than "under" by itself. "Underdeveloped" doesn't mean "less than average development", it means "not and/or insufficiently industrialized", implying a problem to be solved.
        3y ago
TMWNN 3y ago
>More surprising to me is that on the Atlantic coast there's small towns on either side of the border seemingly without a road connection to other adjacent towns in their respective countries This is also true of Newfoundland. There are many small fishng villages on "the Rock" with no road connections; the only link to the rest of the world is by sea. (This is also true of many small villages in Alaska, whether on the coast or not, but there this is less surprising.)
kmlx 3y ago
i was in Colombia 6 years ago for work (Medellin). 2 things stuck with me: - there was a part of the city that was kind of fenced off for security purposes. that’s where all the hotels were. once outside of that area guns were everywhere. and you could tell there was a gun culture as every gun was modified. - the locals were telling me to never go to the north of the country. apparently the people there were in the habit of kidnapping for ransom. there were also rumours of drug/gun trafficking.
- petre 3y ago
  > people there were in the habit of kidnapping for ransom "People there" is likely an exageration. Illegal armed groups. https://colombiareports.com/colombia-illegal-armed-groups-maps/ https://colombiareports.com/colombia-illegal-armed-groups-ma... The FARC group goes back 50+ years and was inspired by Fidel Castro and Che Guevara. There are still radicals who have not laid down their weapons or profit from drug trade or gold mining operations. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/25/farc-che-guevara-era-closes-latin-america-guerrillas https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/25/farc-che-gueva...
- yosito 3y ago
  > there was a part of the city that was kind of fenced off for security purposes. that’s where all the hotels were I've been to Medellín several times, and stayed in some of the nicest and most popular hotels, as well as in various local neighborhoods. I never saw a fenced off part of the city.
  - codethief 3y ago
    +1 No idea what GP is talking about. I lived in Medellín for a while and never saw a single gun.
    - yosito 3y ago
      I saw a couple guns. Even had a friend of mine get robbed at gun point in broad daylight.
wnc3141 3y ago
Somewhat by design. Many proposals to connect the countries have been made but there is very little interest in completing. 1) indigenous communities don't want it, 2) sensitive environment 3) mostly it's a natural border control, which would otherwise have drugs and guerilla fighters flowing through. Instead they often mule to Nicaragua skipping panama altogether.

by avar 3y ago

aledalgrande 3y ago

There's also the issue that the almost impenetrable jungle is (govs say "was") used by drug trafficers and is dangerous https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dari%C3%A9n_Gap#By_land https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dari%C3%A9n_Gap#By_land

foota 3y ago

Maybe the coastal villages trade and travel by boat?

rrr_oh_man 3y ago
As people have done for (maybe dozens or even hundreds of) millennia.
dghlsakjg 3y ago
Exactly. The capital of Alaska is on the mainland, but only reachable by boat or air. This is the same thing as an island in practice. Pretty common for people to live on islands.

sinkasapa 3y ago

Panama is not necessarily that underdeveloped. It is a middle income country as is Colombia. Colombia due to its size and war is more uneven in the development of infrastructure. Having towns only accessible by boat is not necessarily a measure of the capacity for a country to build infrastructure. It isn't that uncommon for even a rich country to have areas accessible only by boat. Consider Jeanu, Alaska. Northern South America has some incredible challenges when in comes to terrain in general. The former columnist on Latin America at the Economist left it as his final thesis that this fact explains why the region is not more rich, despite a wealth of natural resources: https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2022/12/08/latin-america-is-in-a-mess-but-it-still-has-strengths https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2022/12/08/latin-amer... If one has ever been on the road between Villavicencio and Bogotá or passed through Tungurahua to Pastaza in Ecuador they can appreciate the difficulties that were overcome to build those roads. The rough terrain is one reason why less than 50 miles from modern cities in Ecuador there are still uncontacted native people. Given this northern South American baseline, if someone who knows the area says the terrain is unforgiving it is unforgiving.

onetokeoverthe 3y ago
[dead]
Beijinger 3y ago
"Colombia due to its size and war is more uneven in the development of infrastructure." Colombia has parts that remind you of Miami. I guess the drug money had to go somewhere :-) But Colombia IS an amazing place. Its culture, people, history, food and extremely diverse climate, it just overwhelms you. From the Caribbean, to the mountains to the Amazon, there are few places in the world with such a diverse climate. Medellin is the city of eternal spring. And Bogota, the district of Candelaria, I always found it a magical place. But I think nobody likes Bogota except of me. T-Shirts worn by the tourist information: "Colombia, the only risk is that you want to stay"
- ReptileMan 3y ago
  I adore Bogota. And when you are on top of Montserrat and see the other peaks - as if you are in the Tolkien's Misty Mountains

Symbiote 3y ago

Boats are the most appropriate transport to connect those villages. You can even see a ferry service marked on OSM which stops at several towns. I've visited similar places, and there are generally water taxis that will take you where you need to go, deliver goods and post etc. Motorised land transport isn't useful in a small, isolated village surrounded by extremely rough terrain. Note the contour lines: https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/8.66221/-77.36813&layers=P https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/8.66221/-77.36813&laye... The walking track is marked as steps on the Colombian side. It ascends about 50m in very roughly 100m distance, then descends equally steeply.

smallerfish 3y ago

"underdevelopment" is a loaded and also dominionist term. If we connected every human settlement on earth with roads, it's game over for the remaining natural reserves. Putting roads through the Amazon is what really accelerated development of agricultural territory.

rayiner 3y ago
No, it’s an accurate and objective term. All you’re saying is that we need to keep some places underdeveloped in order to protect the environment. Which is an entirely fair point.
- smallerfish 3y ago
  It's not objective. "Under" implies some ideal state of development, and that anything under that threshold is deficient, which is subjective. That's why I say it's a loaded term.
  - PopAlongKid 3y ago
    What would work instead? Lesser-developed and greater-developed? Sub-developed and super-developed? >"Under" implies some ideal state of development No, not necessarily "ideal". It simply implies there is an average or median level, with instances that are lower and instances that are higher. >anything under that threshold is deficient I think if you wanted a loaded term, you'd use something more like "development-deficient" and "development-abundant".
    - smallerfish 3y ago
      Fair enough - I guess I should have been a little more precise: I really meant that "underdeveloped" has a specific meaning, rather than "under" by itself. "Underdeveloped" doesn't mean "less than average development", it means "not and/or insufficiently industrialized", implying a problem to be solved.
      - 3y ago

TMWNN 3y ago

>More surprising to me is that on the Atlantic coast there's small towns on either side of the border seemingly without a road connection to other adjacent towns in their respective countries This is also true of Newfoundland. There are many small fishng villages on "the Rock" with no road connections; the only link to the rest of the world is by sea. (This is also true of many small villages in Alaska, whether on the coast or not, but there this is less surprising.)

kmlx 3y ago

i was in Colombia 6 years ago for work (Medellin). 2 things stuck with me: - there was a part of the city that was kind of fenced off for security purposes. that’s where all the hotels were. once outside of that area guns were everywhere. and you could tell there was a gun culture as every gun was modified. - the locals were telling me to never go to the north of the country. apparently the people there were in the habit of kidnapping for ransom. there were also rumours of drug/gun trafficking.

petre 3y ago
> people there were in the habit of kidnapping for ransom "People there" is likely an exageration. Illegal armed groups. https://colombiareports.com/colombia-illegal-armed-groups-maps/ https://colombiareports.com/colombia-illegal-armed-groups-ma... The FARC group goes back 50+ years and was inspired by Fidel Castro and Che Guevara. There are still radicals who have not laid down their weapons or profit from drug trade or gold mining operations. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/25/farc-che-guevara-era-closes-latin-america-guerrillas https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/25/farc-che-gueva...
yosito 3y ago
> there was a part of the city that was kind of fenced off for security purposes. that’s where all the hotels were I've been to Medellín several times, and stayed in some of the nicest and most popular hotels, as well as in various local neighborhoods. I never saw a fenced off part of the city.
- codethief 3y ago
  +1 No idea what GP is talking about. I lived in Medellín for a while and never saw a single gun.
  - yosito 3y ago
    I saw a couple guns. Even had a friend of mine get robbed at gun point in broad daylight.

wnc3141 3y ago

Somewhat by design. Many proposals to connect the countries have been made but there is very little interest in completing. 1) indigenous communities don't want it, 2) sensitive environment 3) mostly it's a natural border control, which would otherwise have drugs and guerilla fighters flowing through. Instead they often mule to Nicaragua skipping panama altogether.