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There is stuff in here I definitely agree with (record every meeting!), but there is also tons in here that I personally disagree with (e.g., on performance man

There is stuff in here I definitely agree with (record every meeting!), but there is also tons in here that I personally disagree with (e.g., on performance management[0]). This isn't necessarily a criticism -- different problem domains likely demand different approaches and leadership styles -- just to say that I wouldn't take any of this guide as sacrosanct: if anyone reading something in here that doesn't comport with your personal experience, I would recommend deferring to your own experience. [0] https://twitter.com/bcantrill/status/1216491216356823040 https://twitter.com/bcantrill/status/1216491216356823040

zgoldberg 3y ago
Just read through your twitter thread, I really appreciate this perspective and I completely agree, a manager's job includes ensuring the right circumstances to foster intrinsic motivation. I think where I might quibble is there are often circumstances where there are genuine skill gaps and, a manager acting as coach, can accelerate someones growth and performance.
- bcantrill 3y ago
  Sure -- but why drag the entire organization through a perf process to accommodate those folks? Especially when they are tied to comp, performance review processes are (in my experience) about justifying decisions that have already been made rather than actually earnestly trying to improve an employee's growth: decoupling review from comp and then additionally not having a one-size-fits-all review process allows that coaching and mentoring to go where it's most needed -- and it similarly allows for positive feedback to happen much more quickly, broadly, and earnestly.
user_named 3y ago
Why record every meeting? Are you actually going to listen back to it? Waste of time and energy to me.
- esafak 3y ago
  It settles debates about what was discussed, informs people that did not attend, increases discoverability, and promotes transparency. Especially useful in interactions with customers. It's not for your daily stand-up. To quote the inimitable "Yes, Minister" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85fx0LrSMsE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85fx0LrSMsE): It is characteristic of all committee discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member's recollection of them differs violently from every other member's recollection. Consequently we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials. And it isn't so it wasn't.
  - appplication 3y ago
    So there was a laugh track behind that but honestly it seems more like good policy than comedy. If a little blunt.
    - pbronez 3y ago
      Yes Minister is fantastic. I recommend the book all the time. It’s satire, but the exaggeration helps you understand real organizational dynamics. Hmm I’m probably due for a re-read…
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    > It settles debates about what was discussed, informs people that did not attend, increases discoverability, and promotes transparency. Especially useful in interactions with customers. Oh, so we're talking about “recording” as in writing down a record? Not “recording” as in “audio recording” of the meeting. Then I agree with that. Edit: it looks like bcantrill was actually talking about audio recording [1], and then I'm much more skeptical. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37972900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37972900
Oras 3y ago
This advice should apply to any book/blog/video not just this book. Every written text is a state of mind of the author in a point of time. Should never been taken as the only to do things. People learn and grow, so does their advice and context. Read to learn perspectives and ideas, not to just follow.
Hnrobert42 3y ago
Personally, I would never consent to be recorded at every meeting. Further, I would be mortified asking others for their consent. And how could I, as CTO, ask without coercion?
- sgt 3y ago
  Agreed. I would probably consent now and then but largely I find it a bit inappropriate to be recorded, especially when it's a collaborative and group think meeting.
  - shkurski_ 3y ago
    Could you explain what you mean by "recorded"? The distance between full recording and text-only transcription (or summary) is quite large.
    - sgt 3y ago
      In order to get a text-only transcription you need to record it somehow. I can't be sure that a backup audio file isn't stored anywhere, so I believe the same applies. It means that in theory, your conversation with someone else may be shared. I don't consent to that, normally. For presentations, talks etc it's a different matter.
      - shkurski_ 3y ago
        If you store captions produced by a party you trust (e.g., Google Meet), it could be accomplished w/o accessing audio at all. If I get it right, your concern is more about what's in the pipeline than what comes out.
        LtWorf 3y ago
        You've ever seen how google captions youtube? It's completely inaccurate.
- bcantrill 3y ago
Galanwe 3y ago
I don't think you're comparing apple to apple here. You are talking about _forward looking_ performance. That is, how to improve performance from here. Performance reviews in most corporations is _backward looking_, it's about ranking your past performance in the process of allocating compensation and promotions. You propose a wonderful fw looking process, but at the end of the day, you need some bw performance assessment as well.
dberg 3y ago
> For example, an individual contributor software engineer s competency matrix may include a row for coding/feature output velocity. In a Level 1 to Level 5 system, the matrix would specify that for a Level 1 engineer, expectations on code velocity are X pull requests per week I mean. No.
- ekms 3y ago
  What are you quoting? I don't see that sentence anywhere in parent's linked twitter thread
- GordonS 3y ago
  It really is a ridiculous metric. So ridiculous that you'd think it would never be used in reality... and yet, I have in the past actually had the CTO of a large engineering firm insist upon it.
- synergy20 3y ago
  “If you can't measure it, you can't manage it”,do you have better ideas that also work in daily operations and practical? is there a way at all to measure software engineer or no?
  - bcantrill 3y ago
    "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it" is absolutely terrible leadership advice. Or to phrase it another way, if you could magically transport yourself to work on any team in history, which would be and why? And how did those teams run? How did the leadership function? How did the team think of its own performance? In this regard, I feel history is a much better guide than middle management claptrap admonishing us to all kneel before the false god of Measure Everything.
    - synergy20 3y ago
      I don't buy it fully either, but, I could not figure out what's a better alternative, not in theory, but in practice. Software projects are notoriously hard to manage indeed, but it has to be managed somehow, Agile approach is a nice try, we had CMMI as well. Even a neurosurgeon can be measured, why can't software developers, why are software engineers so special? Maybe AI programmer is the way out.
jiveturkey 3y ago
Would you mind posting your twitter thread here? I believe one needs an account to read any replies to a tweet, and since the tweet is in the format of a multi-post thread, it's unreadable to me. From some of the comments here, it seems like it would be quite interesting. EDIT: found it. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1216491216356823040.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1216491216356823040.html > I wouldn't take any of this guide as sacrosanct That goes without saying, doesn't it? None of this thought leader stuff should be taken literally. The book is literally an advertisement: >> I'm also happy to discuss advising, coaching, and mentorship opportunities at the same address.

zgoldberg 3y ago

Just read through your twitter thread, I really appreciate this perspective and I completely agree, a manager's job includes ensuring the right circumstances to foster intrinsic motivation. I think where I might quibble is there are often circumstances where there are genuine skill gaps and, a manager acting as coach, can accelerate someones growth and performance.

bcantrill 3y ago
Sure -- but why drag the entire organization through a perf process to accommodate those folks? Especially when they are tied to comp, performance review processes are (in my experience) about justifying decisions that have already been made rather than actually earnestly trying to improve an employee's growth: decoupling review from comp and then additionally not having a one-size-fits-all review process allows that coaching and mentoring to go where it's most needed -- and it similarly allows for positive feedback to happen much more quickly, broadly, and earnestly.

user_named 3y ago

Why record every meeting? Are you actually going to listen back to it? Waste of time and energy to me.

esafak 3y ago
It settles debates about what was discussed, informs people that did not attend, increases discoverability, and promotes transparency. Especially useful in interactions with customers. It's not for your daily stand-up. To quote the inimitable "Yes, Minister" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85fx0LrSMsE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85fx0LrSMsE): It is characteristic of all committee discussions and decisions that every member has a vivid recollection of them and that every member's recollection of them differs violently from every other member's recollection. Consequently we accept the convention that the official decisions are those and only those which have officially recorded in the minutes by the officials, from which it emerges with an elegant inevitability that any decision which has been officially reached will have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials and any decision which is not recorded in the minutes has not been officially reached even if one or more members believe they can recollect it, so in this particular case if the decision had been officially reached it would have been officially recorded in the minutes by the officials. And it isn't so it wasn't.
- appplication 3y ago
  So there was a laugh track behind that but honestly it seems more like good policy than comedy. If a little blunt.
  - pbronez 3y ago
    Yes Minister is fantastic. I recommend the book all the time. It’s satire, but the exaggeration helps you understand real organizational dynamics. Hmm I’m probably due for a re-read…
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  > It settles debates about what was discussed, informs people that did not attend, increases discoverability, and promotes transparency. Especially useful in interactions with customers. Oh, so we're talking about “recording” as in writing down a record? Not “recording” as in “audio recording” of the meeting. Then I agree with that. Edit: it looks like bcantrill was actually talking about audio recording [1], and then I'm much more skeptical. [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37972900 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37972900

Oras 3y ago

This advice should apply to any book/blog/video not just this book. Every written text is a state of mind of the author in a point of time. Should never been taken as the only to do things. People learn and grow, so does their advice and context. Read to learn perspectives and ideas, not to just follow.

Hnrobert42 3y ago

Personally, I would never consent to be recorded at every meeting. Further, I would be mortified asking others for their consent. And how could I, as CTO, ask without coercion?

sgt 3y ago
Agreed. I would probably consent now and then but largely I find it a bit inappropriate to be recorded, especially when it's a collaborative and group think meeting.
- shkurski_ 3y ago
  Could you explain what you mean by "recorded"? The distance between full recording and text-only transcription (or summary) is quite large.
  - sgt 3y ago
    In order to get a text-only transcription you need to record it somehow. I can't be sure that a backup audio file isn't stored anywhere, so I believe the same applies. It means that in theory, your conversation with someone else may be shared. I don't consent to that, normally. For presentations, talks etc it's a different matter.
    - shkurski_ 3y ago
      If you store captions produced by a party you trust (e.g., Google Meet), it could be accomplished w/o accessing audio at all. If I get it right, your concern is more about what's in the pipeline than what comes out.
      - LtWorf 3y ago
        You've ever seen how google captions youtube? It's completely inaccurate.
bcantrill 3y ago

Galanwe 3y ago

I don't think you're comparing apple to apple here. You are talking about _forward looking_ performance. That is, how to improve performance from here. Performance reviews in most corporations is _backward looking_, it's about ranking your past performance in the process of allocating compensation and promotions. You propose a wonderful fw looking process, but at the end of the day, you need some bw performance assessment as well.

dberg 3y ago

> For example, an individual contributor software engineer s competency matrix may include a row for coding/feature output velocity. In a Level 1 to Level 5 system, the matrix would specify that for a Level 1 engineer, expectations on code velocity are X pull requests per week I mean. No.

ekms 3y ago
What are you quoting? I don't see that sentence anywhere in parent's linked twitter thread
GordonS 3y ago
It really is a ridiculous metric. So ridiculous that you'd think it would never be used in reality... and yet, I have in the past actually had the CTO of a large engineering firm insist upon it.
synergy20 3y ago
“If you can't measure it, you can't manage it”,do you have better ideas that also work in daily operations and practical? is there a way at all to measure software engineer or no?
- bcantrill 3y ago
  "If you can't measure it, you can't manage it" is absolutely terrible leadership advice. Or to phrase it another way, if you could magically transport yourself to work on any team in history, which would be and why? And how did those teams run? How did the leadership function? How did the team think of its own performance? In this regard, I feel history is a much better guide than middle management claptrap admonishing us to all kneel before the false god of Measure Everything.
  - synergy20 3y ago
    I don't buy it fully either, but, I could not figure out what's a better alternative, not in theory, but in practice. Software projects are notoriously hard to manage indeed, but it has to be managed somehow, Agile approach is a nice try, we had CMMI as well. Even a neurosurgeon can be measured, why can't software developers, why are software engineers so special? Maybe AI programmer is the way out.

jiveturkey 3y ago

Would you mind posting your twitter thread here? I believe one needs an account to read any replies to a tweet, and since the tweet is in the format of a multi-post thread, it's unreadable to me. From some of the comments here, it seems like it would be quite interesting. EDIT: found it. https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1216491216356823040.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1216491216356823040.html > I wouldn't take any of this guide as sacrosanct That goes without saying, doesn't it? None of this thought leader stuff should be taken literally. The book is literally an advertisement: >> I'm also happy to discuss advising, coaching, and mentorship opportunities at the same address.