3 ms·

More correct headline: Ketamine found no better than placebo for depression when both were given to people under general anesthesia.

by kromem 3y ago

seadan83 3y ago
Sounds like the dose was before general anesthesia. If ketamine helps with depression, we should expect to see improvements in depressed people who were given ketamine vs placebo. The surgery is immaterial, just a clever way to try and hide people from knowing if they got a placebo (it sounds like ketamine has a pronounced effect/high, so a person tends to know for sure if they got drugs or saline) . From the article: > Their study involved 40 people with major depressive disorder who were scheduled for routine surgery that required the use of general anesthesia. Half were randomized to receive a single dose of saline solution, the placebo, just before the surgery, and the other half a single dose of intravenous ketamine. The act of going under, the researchers theorized, would eliminate the chances of people going on a typical trip. Then they observed the patients for up to three days. The article does mention small sample sizes, which should be emphasized.
- deleted 3y ago
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- kromem 3y ago
  Right. So if the effect of the ketamine on depression relates to the conscious experience of taking it, and not simply the unconscious chemical interactions, then isn't scheduling the dose at a time when the person is unconscious a significant factor in whether or not it's going to be more effective than placebo? We could likely replicate this format to show that mushrooms are no better than placebo for depression or that MDMA is no better for PTSD than placebo. Your assumption that "if ketamine helps with depression we should improvements vs placebo" ignores the considerable likelihood that previous effects in research are the result of conscious interactions with the drug which aren't present in this study. "It sounds like ketamine has a pronounced effect/high" - yeah, and maybe that's the meaningful effect on depression, no?

More correct headline: Ketamine found no better than placebo for depression when both were given to people under general anesthesia.

by kromem 3y ago

More correct headline: Ketamine found no better than placebo for depression when both were given to people under general anesthesia.

seadan83 3y ago

Sounds like the dose was before general anesthesia. If ketamine helps with depression, we should expect to see improvements in depressed people who were given ketamine vs placebo. The surgery is immaterial, just a clever way to try and hide people from knowing if they got a placebo (it sounds like ketamine has a pronounced effect/high, so a person tends to know for sure if they got drugs or saline) . From the article: > Their study involved 40 people with major depressive disorder who were scheduled for routine surgery that required the use of general anesthesia. Half were randomized to receive a single dose of saline solution, the placebo, just before the surgery, and the other half a single dose of intravenous ketamine. The act of going under, the researchers theorized, would eliminate the chances of people going on a typical trip. Then they observed the patients for up to three days. The article does mention small sample sizes, which should be emphasized.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
kromem 3y ago
Right. So if the effect of the ketamine on depression relates to the conscious experience of taking it, and not simply the unconscious chemical interactions, then isn't scheduling the dose at a time when the person is unconscious a significant factor in whether or not it's going to be more effective than placebo? We could likely replicate this format to show that mushrooms are no better than placebo for depression or that MDMA is no better for PTSD than placebo. Your assumption that "if ketamine helps with depression we should improvements vs placebo" ignores the considerable likelihood that previous effects in research are the result of conscious interactions with the drug which aren't present in this study. "It sounds like ketamine has a pronounced effect/high" - yeah, and maybe that's the meaningful effect on depression, no?