4 ms·

For one, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12337490/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12337490/. There's plenty of research on mythology of various tribes regardin

For one, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12337490/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12337490/. There's plenty of research on mythology of various tribes regarding the matter. Some had various suspicions and practices such as above, none had a consistent viewpoint of fatherhood, semen, conception etc comparable to that of people who observed domesticated animals.

defrost 3y ago
Interesting that you link to one of Gillian's papers, I met her in the 1980s. From the full paper of the link you gave, regarding traditional method of abortion in Southern Arnhem Land women: Voluntary controls are of course an important issue in any discussion of overall fertility. A detailed survey of the available information on contraception, abortion and infanticide among Aborigines has revealed that Aboriginal women saw children as a contingent good (Cowlishaw 1979). First there were widespread attempts at contraception by taking medicine, performing rituals and avoiding coitus. Which poses the question, why avoid coitus if there is (as you claim) no understanding of fatherhood and conception.
Perenti 3y ago
Hmmm... only read the abstract, but the idea that indigenous australians _in general_ were starving pre-colonisation is demonstrably false, just consider the eel farms and factories in Victoria
- defrost 3y ago
  I wonder if they read the paper either, it talks of many things, diet, work levels, nutritional levels, etc. It does include the extract: It is the accepted view that huntergatherers in general and Australian Aborigines in particular were neither undernourished nor overworked. But it is necessary to know more of the balance between work expenditure and nourishment, and the particular qualities of the diet that may have some bearing on fertility. (Robson, 1975:51)
- jojobas 3y ago
  How do you think living in balance with the environment looks? It's essentially food equilibrium, as everywhere else in nature. Dry year = death. Also they were eel traps, not farms or factories, were only available to a miniscule fraction of the tribes and they still were in equilibrium with eel supply. Agricultural Revolution is not called revolution for nothing, that's basically when human population started growing after millennia of stability caused by equilibrium with food supply (aka hunger).
  - h0l0cube 3y ago
    It's amazing how you went from 'there was no agricultural revolution in Australia' to 'Aboriginal Australians never figured how seeds work, or the link between pregnancy and sex'. I've witnessed firsthand from many – of course, not all – Australians that they are motivated to believe that indigenous Australians are mentally deficient as a way to paper over past atrocities and to justify the degradation and exclusion of them from society. You might want to give 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' a read, which provides a different and more compelling hypothesis to 'eurasian man smarter' for the beginning of the agricultural revolution.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      I passed no judgement on Aboriginal intellectual ability, you're projecting.
      - h0l0cube 3y ago
        What is different about Aboriginal Australians (in your mind) that caused you suggest they "never figured how seeds work, or the link between pregnancy and sex"? Do you think it took modern science for humans to make these simple deductions? Tell me your hypothesis.
        jojobas 3y ago
        Just wasn't their time. Modern humans spent about 200k years without figuring it out as well, Australians were not that far behind. The sex-pregnancy link was figured out by observing domestic animals, a luxury they didn't have. They developed (or retained?) unique features too, such as being able to sleep in the open in sub-zero temperatures.

defrost 3y ago

Interesting that you link to one of Gillian's papers, I met her in the 1980s. From the full paper of the link you gave, regarding traditional method of abortion in Southern Arnhem Land women: Voluntary controls are of course an important issue in any discussion of overall fertility. A detailed survey of the available information on contraception, abortion and infanticide among Aborigines has revealed that Aboriginal women saw children as a contingent good (Cowlishaw 1979). First there were widespread attempts at contraception by taking medicine, performing rituals and avoiding coitus. Which poses the question, why avoid coitus if there is (as you claim) no understanding of fatherhood and conception.

Perenti 3y ago

Hmmm... only read the abstract, but the idea that indigenous australians _in general_ were starving pre-colonisation is demonstrably false, just consider the eel farms and factories in Victoria

defrost 3y ago
I wonder if they read the paper either, it talks of many things, diet, work levels, nutritional levels, etc. It does include the extract: It is the accepted view that huntergatherers in general and Australian Aborigines in particular were neither undernourished nor overworked. But it is necessary to know more of the balance between work expenditure and nourishment, and the particular qualities of the diet that may have some bearing on fertility. (Robson, 1975:51)
jojobas 3y ago
How do you think living in balance with the environment looks? It's essentially food equilibrium, as everywhere else in nature. Dry year = death. Also they were eel traps, not farms or factories, were only available to a miniscule fraction of the tribes and they still were in equilibrium with eel supply. Agricultural Revolution is not called revolution for nothing, that's basically when human population started growing after millennia of stability caused by equilibrium with food supply (aka hunger).
- h0l0cube 3y ago
  It's amazing how you went from 'there was no agricultural revolution in Australia' to 'Aboriginal Australians never figured how seeds work, or the link between pregnancy and sex'. I've witnessed firsthand from many – of course, not all – Australians that they are motivated to believe that indigenous Australians are mentally deficient as a way to paper over past atrocities and to justify the degradation and exclusion of them from society. You might want to give 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' a read, which provides a different and more compelling hypothesis to 'eurasian man smarter' for the beginning of the agricultural revolution.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    I passed no judgement on Aboriginal intellectual ability, you're projecting.
    - h0l0cube 3y ago
      What is different about Aboriginal Australians (in your mind) that caused you suggest they "never figured how seeds work, or the link between pregnancy and sex"? Do you think it took modern science for humans to make these simple deductions? Tell me your hypothesis.
      - jojobas 3y ago
        Just wasn't their time. Modern humans spent about 200k years without figuring it out as well, Australians were not that far behind. The sex-pregnancy link was figured out by observing domestic animals, a luxury they didn't have. They developed (or retained?) unique features too, such as being able to sleep in the open in sub-zero temperatures.