4 ms·

You know what I'd like to do? Offer free work experience more. I took another young guy on today, to mentor him through a project that we need done but not so b

by marquis 15y ago

You know what I'd like to do? Offer free work experience more. I took another young guy on today, to mentor him through a project that we need done but not so badly it was worth us prioritizing it in our schedule. We're not paying him, but he's getting our time for free, and a good resume piece and reference from us if he steps up to the challenge that I think he can meet. Maybe more of us need to be doing this in our own businesses, bring back apprenticeships. If this guy does well, we'll either hire him if we can, or recommend him. I'll have a friend for life I can call on for advice in whatever speciality he chooses to go on with from here (he looks set to be a sysadmin whiz if he keeps at it). If he fails, I wasted nothing. I've done this before and I'll keep doing it as time permits. He got in touch with us directly, somehow he'd found dev labs near him and we agreed to his request for experience. No degree or experience but a resume full of the right things you want to see from a self-learner (online Stanford classes etc) and he backed it up when we interviewed him. Maybe try that, or ask here on HN for someone to mentor you through developing a real-world project that they need, and don't have the budget or time for. All you can lose is your time, and if things work out maybe some great new friends and a chance at a real opportunity.

parfe 15y ago
I wouldn't go around bragging about breaking employment law. I don't understand how this person can be doing useful work that isn't worth $8/hour to you? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pag... edit: The U.S. Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division (WHD) has developed the six factors below to evaluate whether a worker is a trainee or an employee for purposes of the FLSA: http://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/TEGL/TEGL12-09acc.pdf http://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/TEGL/TEGL12-09acc.pd... 1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or academic educational instruction; 2. The training is for the benefit of the trainees; 3. The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation; 4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees, and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded; 5. The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and 6. The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.
- wpietri 15y ago
  Yeah, in California that's definitely illegal. Which is a shame, because I've seen some people benefit enormously from similar intership-ish things. They got in the door of cash-poor companies, were ambitious enough to take on hard things, and eventually got hired at a level way above what they could have achieved through the normal process. Of course, I've also read about no-pay internships that were total scams, companies just using and abusing the naive so they could get out of paying minimum wage. So I'm glad this stuff is illegal, but I regret that the cheap assholes have ruined it for everyone.
eli_gottlieb 15y ago
Experience is not payment. You are breaking the law and exploiting the kid.
- valuegram 15y ago
  Not necessarily. The US Department of Labor posts guidelines on unpaid interns: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf Of course item 4 will always be a grey area: "The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern" - few employers would take action that provides no advantage, or impedes their business.
  - parfe 15y ago
    I think #1 gets ignored when talking about that list. Tech Schools and University programs offer syllabuses which outline teaching a breadth of knowledge. If you assign an unpaid intern a project based on a need of your company then you likely haven't designed the project to be a teaching tool. (Which then runs into #4).
brudgers 15y ago
If the unpaid trainee is working on open source projects under your supervision, that might be ethical. On the other hand, a traditional apprenticeship entails a formal contract which places substantial obligations on the master...that's why most industries use employees today.
- marquis 15y ago
  Wow, this thread sparked a lot of criticism, I should have clarified that it's work on open source, he gets to totally own the code. We're also not U.S. based.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]

by marquis 15y ago

parfe 15y ago

I wouldn't go around bragging about breaking employment law. I don't understand how this person can be doing useful work that isn't worth $8/hour to you? http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html?pag... edit: The U.S. Department of Labor’s Wage and Hour Division (WHD) has developed the six factors below to evaluate whether a worker is a trainee or an employee for purposes of the FLSA: http://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/TEGL/TEGL12-09acc.pdf http://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/TEGL/TEGL12-09acc.pd... 1. The training, even though it includes actual operation of the facilities of the employer, is similar to what would be given in a vocational school or academic educational instruction; 2. The training is for the benefit of the trainees; 3. The trainees do not displace regular employees, but work under their close observation; 4. The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the trainees, and on occasion the employer’s operations may actually be impeded; 5. The trainees are not necessarily entitled to a job at the conclusion of the training period; and 6. The employer and the trainees understand that the trainees are not entitled to wages for the time spent in training.

wpietri 15y ago
Yeah, in California that's definitely illegal. Which is a shame, because I've seen some people benefit enormously from similar intership-ish things. They got in the door of cash-poor companies, were ambitious enough to take on hard things, and eventually got hired at a level way above what they could have achieved through the normal process. Of course, I've also read about no-pay internships that were total scams, companies just using and abusing the naive so they could get out of paying minimum wage. So I'm glad this stuff is illegal, but I regret that the cheap assholes have ruined it for everyone.

eli_gottlieb 15y ago

Experience is not payment. You are breaking the law and exploiting the kid.

valuegram 15y ago
Not necessarily. The US Department of Labor posts guidelines on unpaid interns: http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.pdf Of course item 4 will always be a grey area: "The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern" - few employers would take action that provides no advantage, or impedes their business.
- parfe 15y ago
  I think #1 gets ignored when talking about that list. Tech Schools and University programs offer syllabuses which outline teaching a breadth of knowledge. If you assign an unpaid intern a project based on a need of your company then you likely haven't designed the project to be a teaching tool. (Which then runs into #4).

brudgers 15y ago

If the unpaid trainee is working on open source projects under your supervision, that might be ethical. On the other hand, a traditional apprenticeship entails a formal contract which places substantial obligations on the master...that's why most industries use employees today.

marquis 15y ago
Wow, this thread sparked a lot of criticism, I should have clarified that it's work on open source, he gets to totally own the code. We're also not U.S. based.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]