3 ms·

Did this lead people to buy surnames? I know buying (into a) surname happened —which is why like 80% of the pop has one of half a dozen surnames, rather than t

by mc32 3y ago

Did this lead people to buy surnames? I know buying (into a) surname happened —which is why like 80% of the pop has one of half a dozen surnames, rather than there being a longer tail of distribution.

bozhark 3y ago
Kim Lee Son This explains a lot, neat
thaumasiotes 3y ago
> I know buying (into a) surname happened —which is why like 80% of the pop has one of half a dozen surnames, rather than there being a longer tail of distribution. Huh? Why would you expect a flatter distribution? The concentration of surnames is easily explained by natural development over time.
- mc32 3y ago
  People could either buy themselves into a genealogy or do it through forgery, forgoing their own surnames. There were advantages to having a ‘noble’ surname: https://factsanddetails.com/korea/Korea/People/entry-7211.html https://factsanddetails.com/korea/Korea/People/entry-7211.ht... So while Japan has a couple of hundred thousand surnames in circulation, Korea has in total about 350. However the great majority of the pop belongs to one of the top eight or so surnames: Kim, Lee/Li/Ri Park/Pak, Cho, Kang, and a couple of others.
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    Note that a surname in the top eight is, by definition, not a noble surname. Almost everyone bearing such a name is a commoner and having it is nothing you can brag about. Your link suggests that what was for sale was noble identity - a place in a specific and unique noble family, with formal documentation that you belonged to it - not a license to use the surname, which everyone was already free to use. > It became increasingly common for successful merchants too to take on a last name. They could purchase an elite genealogy by physically buying a genealogical book (jokbo) — perhaps that of a bankrupt yangban [noble] — and using his surname. > By the late 18th century, forgery of such records was rampant. Many families fiddled with theirs: when, for example, a bloodline came to an end, a non-relative could be written into a genealogical book in return for payment. The stranger, in turn, acquired a noble surname. But again, what you're acquiring there isn't a "noble surname". It's noble legal status, and you end up with whatever surname the noble family uses by coincidence. No one participating in this system cared whether they ended up with the name 金 or with 網切, so this isn't a good explanation for why 金 is so common. The link also dwells on the much greater variety visible in Japanese surnames. It doesn't point out why that is, but we do know the answer - they are more variable for the extremely obvious reason that the concept of a surname in Japan is much more recent, dating to the late nineteenth century.
bane 3y ago
No, I don't believe it was specifically tied to this system. Dr. Mark Peterson[1] who has his own great channel[2] and a video on this topic (in Korean)[3] explains it as mostly just happening as a clerical matter both during the Choson period by simply registering a name to align with prestigious families and to hide your caste status and then later during the Japanese occupation since it was demanded as part of the growing Japanese empire. In practice, it's less confusing than it sounds. Koreans will use contextual associations such as other family members, titles, friend or business associations, and historic clan hometowns to discern things. "Oh, you are a Kim also? Which one?" "I'm from the Jeonju Kims." "Oh haha! I'm from the Incheon Kims. I know another Jeonju Kim, are you that one?" "No that's CEO Kim he's my distant uncle. I'm just the normal Kim. My wife is so and so." "Ahh, okay." (completely made up example that's probably wrong but meh) And after that everybody is clear on who is who. This kind of thing is often included in some introductory stuff about what age everybody is so you can get your honorifics sorted out as well. 1 - https://youtu.be/4VVCbApZ4bg https://youtu.be/4VVCbApZ4bg 2 - https://www.youtube.com/@TheFrogOutsidetheWell https://www.youtube.com/@TheFrogOutsidetheWell 3 - https://youtu.be/tLcwZ4p2pIU https://youtu.be/tLcwZ4p2pIU

by mc32 3y ago

bozhark 3y ago

Kim Lee Son This explains a lot, neat

thaumasiotes 3y ago

> I know buying (into a) surname happened —which is why like 80% of the pop has one of half a dozen surnames, rather than there being a longer tail of distribution. Huh? Why would you expect a flatter distribution? The concentration of surnames is easily explained by natural development over time.

mc32 3y ago
People could either buy themselves into a genealogy or do it through forgery, forgoing their own surnames. There were advantages to having a ‘noble’ surname: https://factsanddetails.com/korea/Korea/People/entry-7211.html https://factsanddetails.com/korea/Korea/People/entry-7211.ht... So while Japan has a couple of hundred thousand surnames in circulation, Korea has in total about 350. However the great majority of the pop belongs to one of the top eight or so surnames: Kim, Lee/Li/Ri Park/Pak, Cho, Kang, and a couple of others.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  Note that a surname in the top eight is, by definition, not a noble surname. Almost everyone bearing such a name is a commoner and having it is nothing you can brag about. Your link suggests that what was for sale was noble identity - a place in a specific and unique noble family, with formal documentation that you belonged to it - not a license to use the surname, which everyone was already free to use. > It became increasingly common for successful merchants too to take on a last name. They could purchase an elite genealogy by physically buying a genealogical book (jokbo) — perhaps that of a bankrupt yangban [noble] — and using his surname. > By the late 18th century, forgery of such records was rampant. Many families fiddled with theirs: when, for example, a bloodline came to an end, a non-relative could be written into a genealogical book in return for payment. The stranger, in turn, acquired a noble surname. But again, what you're acquiring there isn't a "noble surname". It's noble legal status, and you end up with whatever surname the noble family uses by coincidence. No one participating in this system cared whether they ended up with the name 金 or with 網切, so this isn't a good explanation for why 金 is so common. The link also dwells on the much greater variety visible in Japanese surnames. It doesn't point out why that is, but we do know the answer - they are more variable for the extremely obvious reason that the concept of a surname in Japan is much more recent, dating to the late nineteenth century.

bane 3y ago

No, I don't believe it was specifically tied to this system. Dr. Mark Peterson[1] who has his own great channel[2] and a video on this topic (in Korean)[3] explains it as mostly just happening as a clerical matter both during the Choson period by simply registering a name to align with prestigious families and to hide your caste status and then later during the Japanese occupation since it was demanded as part of the growing Japanese empire. In practice, it's less confusing than it sounds. Koreans will use contextual associations such as other family members, titles, friend or business associations, and historic clan hometowns to discern things. "Oh, you are a Kim also? Which one?" "I'm from the Jeonju Kims." "Oh haha! I'm from the Incheon Kims. I know another Jeonju Kim, are you that one?" "No that's CEO Kim he's my distant uncle. I'm just the normal Kim. My wife is so and so." "Ahh, okay." (completely made up example that's probably wrong but meh) And after that everybody is clear on who is who. This kind of thing is often included in some introductory stuff about what age everybody is so you can get your honorifics sorted out as well. 1 - https://youtu.be/4VVCbApZ4bg https://youtu.be/4VVCbApZ4bg 2 - https://www.youtube.com/@TheFrogOutsidetheWell https://www.youtube.com/@TheFrogOutsidetheWell 3 - https://youtu.be/tLcwZ4p2pIU https://youtu.be/tLcwZ4p2pIU