7 ms·

One thing I didn't see in this. Probiotics. So you have an active culture yoghurt, for example, that has one or a small number of bacterial species in it. Thi

One thing I didn't see in this. Probiotics. So you have an active culture yoghurt, for example, that has one or a small number of bacterial species in it. This is claimed to benefit your gut biome. But how? Surely [re]introducing these few species hardly matters, given the overall diversity?

aziaziazi 3y ago
My 2 cents hypothesis : as some food “kills” many organism (garlic for exemple is an excellent gut cleaner), you also benefit to re-fill “good” organism like those in yoghurt.
- InSteady 3y ago
  Garlic is both antimicrobial and a rich source of food (oligosaccharides) for many strains of gut bacteria. It happens to be a favorite additive to fermentation recipes for this reason.
- cmckn 3y ago
  I think you’d have to eat a colossal amount of garlic for its anti-microbial properties to have any measurable impact on your gut bacteria.
iterateoften 3y ago
From what I read and researched online is that probiotics aren’t the bacteria you need, but are sort of good neighbors to the needed bacteria and create an environment they need to thrive by balancing pH of the gut and outcompete the “bad” bacteria and yeast.
- epgui 3y ago
  The only thing I have to say about that is that pH is probably not very clinically relevant. The rest more or less checks out.
  - iterateoften 3y ago
    Yeasts are pretty sensitive to pH levels
    - InSteady 3y ago
      To say nothing of viruses, which make up a huge (but not well understood) portion of our microbiome. Current estimates put the number at over 100,000 unique species and perhaps a few hundred trillion viruses residing in the human microbiome, far eclipsing endogenous and bacterial cells.
t-3 3y ago
Almost all food can be considered "probiotics", as pretty much everything is covered in microbes and provides food for microbes when eaten. A diet that promotes a healthy microbiome is going to be much more effective than supplementing lactobacilli or whatever.
- InSteady 3y ago
  >A diet that promotes a healthy microbiome is going to be much more effective than supplementing lactobacilli or whatever. This may be generally true, but there may be situations where it is significantly better to do both, if we are talking about probiotic pills. Needs more research before making definitive statements (other than the reasonable stance that careful refinement of diet should always be the starting point when possible). Fermented foods are on another level, though. It appears that increasing consumption of fermented foods is just plain good for us as a general rule. May someday be a standard corollary to "eat your veggies" for overall health and longevity.
  - chjfkdn 3y ago
    That's why so many ancient cultures made beer. Basically every culture that began eating grains immediately also started fermenting them into beer. It wasn't for the alcohol, that was normally very low in c. 5000BC beer anyways. It was because people that consumed it were healthier than those that didn't. Fermentation is nutritius and beneficial beyond alcohol/calories/potable water.
forgotmypw17 3y ago
Two thoughts: a) By introducing a large number of one or a couple of particular species, you're influencing the demographics. b) The type of creatures you find in fermented foods are exactly the type of creatures who can help you digest those foods.
InSteady 3y ago
Some studies show bacteria from fermented foods colonizing the colon and others do not, although regular consumption does tend to marginally increase microbiome diversity (a generic and in many ways crude measure of GI health). In theory, an optimally functioning GI tract would be killing a majority of the live bacteria long before they reach the colon via a combo of enzyme activity, stomach acid, bile, pancreatic enzymes, and immune activity on the way down. What has been more consistently shown is fermented foods causing decreases in GI inflammation and other positive impacts. Some researchers now believe that many if not most of the benefits come from all of the microbial action prior to consumption. Fermenters such as Lactobacteria do a lot of work for us ahead of time, such as breaking down so-called 'anti-nutrients' and converting low-bioavailability nutrients into high bioavailability nutrients, producing anti-inflammatory metabolites, outcompeting pathogenic bacteria and fungi, and so forth. Bacterial fermentation has even been shown to break down pesticides [0], aflatoxins [1], and other potential contaminants present in the raw food. I wouldn't be shocked if microplastics and/or PFAS gets added to that list, at least under certain conditions, in the coming years. [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2012.677872 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2012.67... [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737493/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737493/
- elcritch 3y ago
  > Some researchers now believe that many if not most of the benefits come from all of the microbial action prior to consumption. That seems counter to the whole idea behind modern research on the importance of the gut microbiome and a throwback to the thinking of the previous century. Certainly some of the work of bacteria is done before but that’s well known as many foods are fermented but the cultures are killed or pasteurized afterwards. Classic American yoghurt was like this, but there’s clear benefits to yoghurt with live cultures. Even if many bacteria don’t colonize the gut their presence in the food or taken separately appears important. In my opinion the evidence is overwhelming that actual probiotic bacteria themselves are important, not just their by products in the food. Our immune system detects healthy bacteria both living and dead and lowers inflammation in response, etc. There’s a lot of research on the topic and good summary research (1, 2). The presence of the bacteria also change the gene regulation in the intestines. Fecal transplants can directly treat diseases, or trigger diseases with maladaptive bacteria (3). 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8512487/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8512487/ 2: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772502222001457 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277250222... 3: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2022.991788/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2022.9917...
nabla9 3y ago
(heard from probiotics researcher) Probiotics can potentially be highly effective, but you must eat some specific probiotic that helps you. The science of figuring out what type of probiotic you need is not very advanced. Pharmasies sell probiotics for consumers and there are also foods that claim to have benefits, but they don't usually work, or work only by accident. If you have been taking antibiotics, your biome is likely out of order. Fecal transplants can help.
tim333 3y ago
One anecdote. I had a friend with ongoing gut problems for years and tried giving him probiotics in pill form and it didn't really do anything. But recently he's discovered taking garlic juice seems to make things better. Presumably it kills of whatever bacteria that were upsetting his gut.

aziaziazi 3y ago

My 2 cents hypothesis : as some food “kills” many organism (garlic for exemple is an excellent gut cleaner), you also benefit to re-fill “good” organism like those in yoghurt.

InSteady 3y ago
Garlic is both antimicrobial and a rich source of food (oligosaccharides) for many strains of gut bacteria. It happens to be a favorite additive to fermentation recipes for this reason.
cmckn 3y ago
I think you’d have to eat a colossal amount of garlic for its anti-microbial properties to have any measurable impact on your gut bacteria.

iterateoften 3y ago

From what I read and researched online is that probiotics aren’t the bacteria you need, but are sort of good neighbors to the needed bacteria and create an environment they need to thrive by balancing pH of the gut and outcompete the “bad” bacteria and yeast.

epgui 3y ago
The only thing I have to say about that is that pH is probably not very clinically relevant. The rest more or less checks out.
- iterateoften 3y ago
  Yeasts are pretty sensitive to pH levels
  - InSteady 3y ago
    To say nothing of viruses, which make up a huge (but not well understood) portion of our microbiome. Current estimates put the number at over 100,000 unique species and perhaps a few hundred trillion viruses residing in the human microbiome, far eclipsing endogenous and bacterial cells.

t-3 3y ago

Almost all food can be considered "probiotics", as pretty much everything is covered in microbes and provides food for microbes when eaten. A diet that promotes a healthy microbiome is going to be much more effective than supplementing lactobacilli or whatever.

InSteady 3y ago
>A diet that promotes a healthy microbiome is going to be much more effective than supplementing lactobacilli or whatever. This may be generally true, but there may be situations where it is significantly better to do both, if we are talking about probiotic pills. Needs more research before making definitive statements (other than the reasonable stance that careful refinement of diet should always be the starting point when possible). Fermented foods are on another level, though. It appears that increasing consumption of fermented foods is just plain good for us as a general rule. May someday be a standard corollary to "eat your veggies" for overall health and longevity.
- chjfkdn 3y ago
  That's why so many ancient cultures made beer. Basically every culture that began eating grains immediately also started fermenting them into beer. It wasn't for the alcohol, that was normally very low in c. 5000BC beer anyways. It was because people that consumed it were healthier than those that didn't. Fermentation is nutritius and beneficial beyond alcohol/calories/potable water.

forgotmypw17 3y ago

Two thoughts: a) By introducing a large number of one or a couple of particular species, you're influencing the demographics. b) The type of creatures you find in fermented foods are exactly the type of creatures who can help you digest those foods.

InSteady 3y ago

Some studies show bacteria from fermented foods colonizing the colon and others do not, although regular consumption does tend to marginally increase microbiome diversity (a generic and in many ways crude measure of GI health). In theory, an optimally functioning GI tract would be killing a majority of the live bacteria long before they reach the colon via a combo of enzyme activity, stomach acid, bile, pancreatic enzymes, and immune activity on the way down. What has been more consistently shown is fermented foods causing decreases in GI inflammation and other positive impacts. Some researchers now believe that many if not most of the benefits come from all of the microbial action prior to consumption. Fermenters such as Lactobacteria do a lot of work for us ahead of time, such as breaking down so-called 'anti-nutrients' and converting low-bioavailability nutrients into high bioavailability nutrients, producing anti-inflammatory metabolites, outcompeting pathogenic bacteria and fungi, and so forth. Bacterial fermentation has even been shown to break down pesticides [0], aflatoxins [1], and other potential contaminants present in the raw food. I wouldn't be shocked if microplastics and/or PFAS gets added to that list, at least under certain conditions, in the coming years. [0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2012.677872 https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408398.2012.67... [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737493/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3737493/

elcritch 3y ago
> Some researchers now believe that many if not most of the benefits come from all of the microbial action prior to consumption. That seems counter to the whole idea behind modern research on the importance of the gut microbiome and a throwback to the thinking of the previous century. Certainly some of the work of bacteria is done before but that’s well known as many foods are fermented but the cultures are killed or pasteurized afterwards. Classic American yoghurt was like this, but there’s clear benefits to yoghurt with live cultures. Even if many bacteria don’t colonize the gut their presence in the food or taken separately appears important. In my opinion the evidence is overwhelming that actual probiotic bacteria themselves are important, not just their by products in the food. Our immune system detects healthy bacteria both living and dead and lowers inflammation in response, etc. There’s a lot of research on the topic and good summary research (1, 2). The presence of the bacteria also change the gene regulation in the intestines. Fecal transplants can directly treat diseases, or trigger diseases with maladaptive bacteria (3). 1: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8512487/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8512487/ 2: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2772502222001457 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S277250222... 3: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2022.991788/full https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2022.9917...

nabla9 3y ago

(heard from probiotics researcher) Probiotics can potentially be highly effective, but you must eat some specific probiotic that helps you. The science of figuring out what type of probiotic you need is not very advanced. Pharmasies sell probiotics for consumers and there are also foods that claim to have benefits, but they don't usually work, or work only by accident. If you have been taking antibiotics, your biome is likely out of order. Fecal transplants can help.

tim333 3y ago

One anecdote. I had a friend with ongoing gut problems for years and tried giving him probiotics in pill form and it didn't really do anything. But recently he's discovered taking garlic juice seems to make things better. Presumably it kills of whatever bacteria that were upsetting his gut.