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Pro-Palestinian views face suppression in US amid Israel-Hamas war

15 points by vector_spaces 3y ago

throwawaysleep 3y ago
[flagged]
- michaelmrose 3y ago
  Those are opt in hate groups whereas Palestinians are a nationality and an ethnicity. Most of those who reside there were born in the region 47% are under 18. Most of the female half of the population isn't really consulted. The "beheaders" number in the thousands the normal folks number in the millions.
- itronitron 3y ago
  It is my understanding that the majority of Palestinians living in Gaza are not able to leave Gaza.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Since the USPCR is mentioned in the article a quick search leads to: https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/us-campaign-to-end-israeli-occupation/ https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/us-campaign-to-end-israeli-... Their aim clearly seems to be the destruction of Israel. So, hmm, is the Guardian an useful idiot or is it more sinister?
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  Even that biased sounding site doesn't come to such a bold conclusion as you do. > Exploits the US civil rights struggle by accusing Israel of maintaining a “matrix of control” over the Palestinian population and enacting “laws that discriminate against [Palestinians], much as Black Americans had been treated during the Jim Crow era.” "Exploits the US civil rights struggle"?
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    "Bold"? Come on, it's explicitly mentioned in the link whereas you cherry-pick a small paragraph. One director tweeted "F*k Israel every day until the fall of the zionist regime." Then some members orgs "rejecting dialogue", "Promotes political warfare strategy against Israel ... with the ultimate goal of dismantling Israel as a Jewish and democratic state." If you can be so blind I think this proves the point of what very nasty people are easily hiding under the "Pro-Palestine" umbrella. People should be extremely cautious and do their own research. Even the cursory one I've just done here already raises many red flags.
    - vector_spaces 3y ago
      If you can be so blind ... Note the site guidelines: When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Mentioning this because I've been frustrated about the lack of attention recent events have been given on this site and I don't want to see this thread nuked
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        I didn't call names. Read again what has happened. You seem as blind by the way by refusing to see or acknowledge the sort of people who often hide (or not so hide) their true agenda under the "pro-palestine" umbrella. "Not so hide" because even in this thread I alreary see one commenter siding with what I have called out. So here we have it. So it seems to me that the Guardian is the useful idiot here, if not worse. By the way, I don't think the topic is appropriate on this site, so I have already commented too much but it is also frustrating to see the exploitation by extremists.
- vector_spaces 3y ago
  NGO Monitor (Non-governmental Organization Monitor) is a right-wing non-governmental organization based in Jerusalem that reports on international NGO activity from a pro-Israel perspective.[4][5][6][7] NGO Monitor has been criticized by academic figures, diplomats, and journalists for allowing its research and conclusions to be driven by politics,[8][9][10] for not examining right-wing NGOs,[10] and for putting out misleading information.[11] NGO Monitor's stated mission is to "end the practice used by certain self-declared 'humanitarian NGOs' of exploiting the label 'universal human rights values' to promote politically and ideologically motivated agendas".[1] A number of academics have written that NGO Monitor's aims and activities are political in nature.[10][12][9] The organization's leader, Gerald M. Steinberg, has reportedly worked for the Israeli Foreign Ministry and the Office of the Prime Minister while heading NGO Monitor.[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGO_Monitor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGO_Monitor
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Is anything they write about that organisation, some of which I quoted, false? That's what you should focus on rather than trying to shoot the messenger.
    - vector_spaces 3y ago
      I was just quoting Wikipedia, not shooting anyone. Organizations don't exist in a vacuum, it's usually helpful to know the context in which these NGOs, nonprofits, and think tanks operate -- in particular, it's unlikely that a right-wing NGO based in Israel whose leader has worked for the Israeli foreign ministry and prime minister's office would ever have much nice to say about organizations critical of the Israeli state.
    - helpfulContrib 3y ago
      [dead]
- enterprise_cog 3y ago
  Yeah, they want the end to the ethnostate of Israel. Meanwhile, Israeli leaders want to end the entire Palestinian ethnicity. Given that, why would there be anything wrong with wanting an end to that state? Are the Palestinian people just supposed to lay down and die? I am genuinely curious what people like you expect them to do, and — if you were in the Palestinian position — what you would do.
  - edanm 3y ago
    You've gotten a wrong impression that Israeli leaders want to end the entire Palestinian ethnicity. That's just... not true. It's demonstrably not true in that Israel has, at various times, agreed to peace deals that would create a two-state solution (which would mean there being a Palestinian state). These deals were rejected by the Palestinians for various reasons. In fact, the government of Gaza, which is Hamas, in contrast with Israel, both says that it wants to destroy Israel and kill all Jews, and also acts on it. So it's the Palestinian side (or at least Gaza's currently-elected leaders) that are trying to destroy the Israeli state. > if you were in the Palestinian position — what you would do. I'd try, to my best ability, to get decent leaders instead of Hamas, who would pursue the betterment of my people and pursue peace. Hamas spends so much of its resources on war with Israel, if they spend more of those resources on its own citizens, they would both be better off, and peace would happen far more quickly.
    - enterprise_cog 3y ago
      Which side has forced the other into a 25x5 mile strip of land? What country doesn’t allow that land to be properly built out? Which country restricts movement, cut off food and water, disabled electricity, and has blocked most aid from entering Gaza? That’s Israel in case you aren’t sure. And those are acts of genocide. So why are you saying Israel doesn’t act on it?
      - edanm 3y ago
        First of all, I disagree with your list of things above. But for now, let's focus on this: > And those are acts of genocide. No, those aren't. Just in case I was wrong about this, I went and checked the UN's definition of genocide: > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians using any of the above. Their numbers have doubled during the time Israel is around. Which of the things Israel is doing is a genocide as per this definition? Back to your "list of things Israel does", saying that Israel has "forced" Palestinians into a 25x5 mile strip of land is inaccurate. What do you mean forced? This is their land. Israel withdrew from it, they govern it themselves, in what way were they "forced" into it? And in what way does Israel not allow that land to be built out? Hamas isn't exactly big on improving the land, preferring to use their resources to kill Israelis, but that's no the fault of Israel. Again, Israel withdrew from that land and doesn't govern it! They can build things (and have, actually).
proc0 3y ago
[flagged]
- johnnyworker 3y ago
  If you dehumanize people as "zombies" -- 45% of the population of Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas on Earth, are under the age of 15! -- then yes, you are at best a racist, and my civility towards people who deserve is to not further interact with someone who does not.
  - proc0 3y ago
    You're missing the big the picture and predictably falling back into the oppressor and oppressed false dichotomy. There are toxic ideologies that spread like disease and at some point you are too far gone. Anyone who understands why winning WW2 was important understands this.
    - johnnyworker 3y ago
      > You're missing the big the picture and predictably falling back into the oppressor and oppressed false dichotomy. After imploring people to not straw man you, this? Heh. I said exactly what I said, and you can play with whatever you prefer me to have said by yourself. Though I'll say unwittingly you raised a good point: the Nazis also declared what they did as a benevolent response to a grave threat to all of humanity, and then went from their rhetoric of "the" Jew straight to murdering children. "Killing the terrorists of tomorrow", as right-wing Israelis call it. I'm with Leibowitz, who loved Israel more than you can even imagine, and Finkelstein, who called BDS a cult and insists on international law. I don't need or want your approval.
      - proc0 3y ago
        I'm not trying to approve or disapprove of anything. I'm just trying to illustrate the root cause in a short comment, and discuss. I'm open to learning. I still think you are describing an incomplete picture and underestimating the extremist religious groups that literally state and show their intentions. This is at least a big factor in the discussion, yet it's completely left out from a lot of the protests from the posted article.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

15 points by vector_spaces 3y ago

throwawaysleep 3y ago

[flagged]

michaelmrose 3y ago
Those are opt in hate groups whereas Palestinians are a nationality and an ethnicity. Most of those who reside there were born in the region 47% are under 18. Most of the female half of the population isn't really consulted. The "beheaders" number in the thousands the normal folks number in the millions.
itronitron 3y ago
It is my understanding that the majority of Palestinians living in Gaza are not able to leave Gaza.

mytailorisrich 3y ago

Since the USPCR is mentioned in the article a quick search leads to: https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/us-campaign-to-end-israeli-occupation/ https://www.ngo-monitor.org/ngos/us-campaign-to-end-israeli-... Their aim clearly seems to be the destruction of Israel. So, hmm, is the Guardian an useful idiot or is it more sinister?

ZeroGravitas 3y ago
Even that biased sounding site doesn't come to such a bold conclusion as you do. > Exploits the US civil rights struggle by accusing Israel of maintaining a “matrix of control” over the Palestinian population and enacting “laws that discriminate against [Palestinians], much as Black Americans had been treated during the Jim Crow era.” "Exploits the US civil rights struggle"?
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  "Bold"? Come on, it's explicitly mentioned in the link whereas you cherry-pick a small paragraph. One director tweeted "F*k Israel every day until the fall of the zionist regime." Then some members orgs "rejecting dialogue", "Promotes political warfare strategy against Israel ... with the ultimate goal of dismantling Israel as a Jewish and democratic state." If you can be so blind I think this proves the point of what very nasty people are easily hiding under the "Pro-Palestine" umbrella. People should be extremely cautious and do their own research. Even the cursory one I've just done here already raises many red flags.
  - vector_spaces 3y ago
    If you can be so blind ... Note the site guidelines: When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Mentioning this because I've been frustrated about the lack of attention recent events have been given on this site and I don't want to see this thread nuked
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      I didn't call names. Read again what has happened. You seem as blind by the way by refusing to see or acknowledge the sort of people who often hide (or not so hide) their true agenda under the "pro-palestine" umbrella. "Not so hide" because even in this thread I alreary see one commenter siding with what I have called out. So here we have it. So it seems to me that the Guardian is the useful idiot here, if not worse. By the way, I don't think the topic is appropriate on this site, so I have already commented too much but it is also frustrating to see the exploitation by extremists.
vector_spaces 3y ago
NGO Monitor (Non-governmental Organization Monitor) is a right-wing non-governmental organization based in Jerusalem that reports on international NGO activity from a pro-Israel perspective.[4][5][6][7] NGO Monitor has been criticized by academic figures, diplomats, and journalists for allowing its research and conclusions to be driven by politics,[8][9][10] for not examining right-wing NGOs,[10] and for putting out misleading information.[11] NGO Monitor's stated mission is to "end the practice used by certain self-declared 'humanitarian NGOs' of exploiting the label 'universal human rights values' to promote politically and ideologically motivated agendas".[1] A number of academics have written that NGO Monitor's aims and activities are political in nature.[10][12][9] The organization's leader, Gerald M. Steinberg, has reportedly worked for the Israeli Foreign Ministry and the Office of the Prime Minister while heading NGO Monitor.[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGO_Monitor https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGO_Monitor
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Is anything they write about that organisation, some of which I quoted, false? That's what you should focus on rather than trying to shoot the messenger.
  - vector_spaces 3y ago
    I was just quoting Wikipedia, not shooting anyone. Organizations don't exist in a vacuum, it's usually helpful to know the context in which these NGOs, nonprofits, and think tanks operate -- in particular, it's unlikely that a right-wing NGO based in Israel whose leader has worked for the Israeli foreign ministry and prime minister's office would ever have much nice to say about organizations critical of the Israeli state.
  - helpfulContrib 3y ago
    [dead]
enterprise_cog 3y ago
Yeah, they want the end to the ethnostate of Israel. Meanwhile, Israeli leaders want to end the entire Palestinian ethnicity. Given that, why would there be anything wrong with wanting an end to that state? Are the Palestinian people just supposed to lay down and die? I am genuinely curious what people like you expect them to do, and — if you were in the Palestinian position — what you would do.
- edanm 3y ago
  You've gotten a wrong impression that Israeli leaders want to end the entire Palestinian ethnicity. That's just... not true. It's demonstrably not true in that Israel has, at various times, agreed to peace deals that would create a two-state solution (which would mean there being a Palestinian state). These deals were rejected by the Palestinians for various reasons. In fact, the government of Gaza, which is Hamas, in contrast with Israel, both says that it wants to destroy Israel and kill all Jews, and also acts on it. So it's the Palestinian side (or at least Gaza's currently-elected leaders) that are trying to destroy the Israeli state. > if you were in the Palestinian position — what you would do. I'd try, to my best ability, to get decent leaders instead of Hamas, who would pursue the betterment of my people and pursue peace. Hamas spends so much of its resources on war with Israel, if they spend more of those resources on its own citizens, they would both be better off, and peace would happen far more quickly.
  - enterprise_cog 3y ago
    Which side has forced the other into a 25x5 mile strip of land? What country doesn’t allow that land to be properly built out? Which country restricts movement, cut off food and water, disabled electricity, and has blocked most aid from entering Gaza? That’s Israel in case you aren’t sure. And those are acts of genocide. So why are you saying Israel doesn’t act on it?
    - edanm 3y ago
      First of all, I disagree with your list of things above. But for now, let's focus on this: > And those are acts of genocide. No, those aren't. Just in case I was wrong about this, I went and checked the UN's definition of genocide: > In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Israel is not trying to destroy the Palestinians using any of the above. Their numbers have doubled during the time Israel is around. Which of the things Israel is doing is a genocide as per this definition? Back to your "list of things Israel does", saying that Israel has "forced" Palestinians into a 25x5 mile strip of land is inaccurate. What do you mean forced? This is their land. Israel withdrew from it, they govern it themselves, in what way were they "forced" into it? And in what way does Israel not allow that land to be built out? Hamas isn't exactly big on improving the land, preferring to use their resources to kill Israelis, but that's no the fault of Israel. Again, Israel withdrew from that land and doesn't govern it! They can build things (and have, actually).

proc0 3y ago

[flagged]

johnnyworker 3y ago
If you dehumanize people as "zombies" -- 45% of the population of Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas on Earth, are under the age of 15! -- then yes, you are at best a racist, and my civility towards people who deserve is to not further interact with someone who does not.
- proc0 3y ago
  You're missing the big the picture and predictably falling back into the oppressor and oppressed false dichotomy. There are toxic ideologies that spread like disease and at some point you are too far gone. Anyone who understands why winning WW2 was important understands this.
  - johnnyworker 3y ago
    > You're missing the big the picture and predictably falling back into the oppressor and oppressed false dichotomy. After imploring people to not straw man you, this? Heh. I said exactly what I said, and you can play with whatever you prefer me to have said by yourself. Though I'll say unwittingly you raised a good point: the Nazis also declared what they did as a benevolent response to a grave threat to all of humanity, and then went from their rhetoric of "the" Jew straight to murdering children. "Killing the terrorists of tomorrow", as right-wing Israelis call it. I'm with Leibowitz, who loved Israel more than you can even imagine, and Finkelstein, who called BDS a cult and insists on international law. I don't need or want your approval.
    - proc0 3y ago
      I'm not trying to approve or disapprove of anything. I'm just trying to illustrate the root cause in a short comment, and discuss. I'm open to learning. I still think you are describing an incomplete picture and underestimating the extremist religious groups that literally state and show their intentions. This is at least a big factor in the discussion, yet it's completely left out from a lot of the protests from the posted article.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]