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Maybe the better question is why is this even needed? As far as I can tell it's only needed because of corn to ethanol refining which itself is a technology tha

by bwanab 3y ago

Maybe the better question is why is this even needed? As far as I can tell it's only needed because of corn to ethanol refining which itself is a technology that probably shouldn't exist: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/us-corn-biofuels https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/us-corn-biofuels.

mkoryak 3y ago
But it does exist. Should nothing be done about climate change because we wish it wasn't happening?
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  If we end unnecessary corn and ethanol subsidies, ethanol production sunsets. The ethanol industry continues to fight for more ethanol subsidies in the face of future volume declines as EV sales ramp. We harvest 40 million acres in the US for ethanol, as a data point. 40 million acres! Think of the downstream impacts of harvesting all of that land (farm implement emissions, petrol based fertilizer production and application, etc) for corn based ethanol that we're then going to try to bolt CO2 pipelines and capture on to. Lean into EVs and renewables (including PV agrivoltaics when applicable). Lets leave this dumpster fire of ag energy policy handout to farmers behind. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37956610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37956610 (citations) https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-3321701 https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-... ("Understanding the Ethanol Subsidy") https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/laws/ETH?state=US https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/laws/ETH?state=US ("Federal Ethanol Laws and Incentives") https://www.taxpayer.net/energy-natural-resources/understanding-u-s-corn-ethanol-and-other-corn-based-biofuels-subsidies/ https://www.taxpayer.net/energy-natural-resources/understand... ("Understanding U.S. Corn Ethanol and Other Corn-Based Biofuels Subsidies: Taxpayers have subsidized the mature corn ethanol industry for more than 40 years") https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800922001987 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09218... ("Light-duty vehicle fleet electrification in the United States and its effects on global agricultural markets") https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-ethanol-worse-climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-e... ("U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds")
  - fnordpiglet 3y ago
    But it does exist, and it won’t end for as long as corn is farmed and farm states have senators. Given this reality, the other option is doing absolutely nothing and being angry that the world is emergently the way it is. While it doesn’t have to be this way it is this way, and the engineering solution is actually achievable while the political solution is intractable.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      Agree to disagree I suppose, moot with the project dead. Onward.
- veqq 3y ago
  Ethanol is not doing something about climate change. Corn ethanol is not energy positive. It's straight green washing, with more energy (oil and other hydrocarbon derived products) in than out. Sugar ethanol (widespread in Brazil) is energy positive at least, but not by much.
credit_guy 3y ago
In the end ethanol should indeed disappear as a technology, but right now it is needed. Not as a biofuel, although it is touted as such. Instead it is needed as a fuel additive that increases the octane number. Without ethanol we'd need lead, which is obviously a non-starter, or some other additives that generally have more downsides than ethanol (for example MTBE, which is very toxic). As we replace more and more ICE cars with electric cars, we'll stop using ethanol. In the US, this could result in 30 million acres of farm land being freed up to be used for something better.
- WirelessGigabit 3y ago
  So how did Europe do it before they started adding ethanol? They had 95 RON / 91 AKI and 98 RON / 93 AKI for the longest time. They only started adding ethanol in the last 5 years.
  - credit_guy 3y ago
    I think the main fuel additive used in Europe is (or was until recently) ETBE, or ethyl tertiary-butyl ether. This additive is similar to MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether), which was the most popular in the world after lead was outlawed, and continues to be used today in a few countries, like Mexico and Venezuela, but which is very toxic. ETBE appears to not be as toxic, but it is derived from ethanol. In the end it's not clear if it's worth the extra chemical processing step to convert ethanol to ETBE, or to just use ethanol directly. The US chose to use ethanol, and it looks like Europe is moving to ethanol too. [1] https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/ci/products/gasoline-octane-improvers-chemical-economics-handbook.html https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/ci/products/ga...

by bwanab 3y ago

mkoryak 3y ago

But it does exist. Should nothing be done about climate change because we wish it wasn't happening?

toomuchtodo 3y ago
If we end unnecessary corn and ethanol subsidies, ethanol production sunsets. The ethanol industry continues to fight for more ethanol subsidies in the face of future volume declines as EV sales ramp. We harvest 40 million acres in the US for ethanol, as a data point. 40 million acres! Think of the downstream impacts of harvesting all of that land (farm implement emissions, petrol based fertilizer production and application, etc) for corn based ethanol that we're then going to try to bolt CO2 pipelines and capture on to. Lean into EVs and renewables (including PV agrivoltaics when applicable). Lets leave this dumpster fire of ag energy policy handout to farmers behind. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37956610 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37956610 (citations) https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-3321701 https://www.thoughtco.com/understanding-the-ethanol-subsidy-... ("Understanding the Ethanol Subsidy") https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/laws/ETH?state=US https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/laws/ETH?state=US ("Federal Ethanol Laws and Incentives") https://www.taxpayer.net/energy-natural-resources/understanding-u-s-corn-ethanol-and-other-corn-based-biofuels-subsidies/ https://www.taxpayer.net/energy-natural-resources/understand... ("Understanding U.S. Corn Ethanol and Other Corn-Based Biofuels Subsidies: Taxpayers have subsidized the mature corn ethanol industry for more than 40 years") https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0921800922001987 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09218... ("Light-duty vehicle fleet electrification in the United States and its effects on global agricultural markets") https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-ethanol-worse-climate-than-gasoline-study-finds-2022-02-14/ https://www.reuters.com/business/environment/us-corn-based-e... ("U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds")
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  But it does exist, and it won’t end for as long as corn is farmed and farm states have senators. Given this reality, the other option is doing absolutely nothing and being angry that the world is emergently the way it is. While it doesn’t have to be this way it is this way, and the engineering solution is actually achievable while the political solution is intractable.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    Agree to disagree I suppose, moot with the project dead. Onward.
veqq 3y ago
Ethanol is not doing something about climate change. Corn ethanol is not energy positive. It's straight green washing, with more energy (oil and other hydrocarbon derived products) in than out. Sugar ethanol (widespread in Brazil) is energy positive at least, but not by much.

credit_guy 3y ago

In the end ethanol should indeed disappear as a technology, but right now it is needed. Not as a biofuel, although it is touted as such. Instead it is needed as a fuel additive that increases the octane number. Without ethanol we'd need lead, which is obviously a non-starter, or some other additives that generally have more downsides than ethanol (for example MTBE, which is very toxic). As we replace more and more ICE cars with electric cars, we'll stop using ethanol. In the US, this could result in 30 million acres of farm land being freed up to be used for something better.

WirelessGigabit 3y ago
So how did Europe do it before they started adding ethanol? They had 95 RON / 91 AKI and 98 RON / 93 AKI for the longest time. They only started adding ethanol in the last 5 years.
- credit_guy 3y ago
  I think the main fuel additive used in Europe is (or was until recently) ETBE, or ethyl tertiary-butyl ether. This additive is similar to MTBE (methyl tertiary-butyl ether), which was the most popular in the world after lead was outlawed, and continues to be used today in a few countries, like Mexico and Venezuela, but which is very toxic. ETBE appears to not be as toxic, but it is derived from ethanol. In the end it's not clear if it's worth the extra chemical processing step to convert ethanol to ETBE, or to just use ethanol directly. The US chose to use ethanol, and it looks like Europe is moving to ethanol too. [1] https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/ci/products/gasoline-octane-improvers-chemical-economics-handbook.html https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/ci/products/ga...