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> Passing the first tier of Keju, known as the provincial exam, was a lot easier – working out to be 4 per cent on average during the Ming. Still, this was more

> Passing the first tier of Keju, known as the provincial exam, was a lot easier – working out to be 4 per cent on average during the Ming. Still, this was more cut-throat than getting into Harvard in most years. While Harvard’s admit rate might be above 4% in some years, there is more selection bias in the applicant pool, it would seem. The vast majority of people don’t bother to apply.

mannykannot 3y ago
Women could not participate, so it was definitely more cut-throat than Harvard for half the population. The article gives a figure of ~1M taking the provincial exam annually during the Ming dynasty, with the later Ming empire having a population in the range 160-200M. You are probably right about self-selection being greater for Harvard, then, given that just about anyone can, in principle, apply there.
CSSer 3y ago
Right. Without an outright scholarship or wealthy background, how would you pay? I never bothered because I was an upper quartile student, not an outstanding one (I was distracted by the usual things). I needed in-state benefits and grants to afford college. This leads me to suspect there is no “academic middle class” at Harvard. Ironically, I also suspect that despite that, the quality distribution of accepted candidates is roughly similar to most other universities too. Much of this personal suspicion stems from empirically utilizing online courses of theirs when I was in undergrad and observing students ask questions in recordings of course lectures. Of course they got into Harvard, but I was surprised how often many of them struck me as very normal in terms of ability to grasp material. I suppose the rest of it comes from some of the silly stuff I occasionally read in HBR. Heh.
- jibe 3y ago
  Without an outright scholarship or wealthy background, how would you pay Harvard and most top private schools are generous in financial support if you can’t afford it. Harvard is free for families making less the 85k. But you are right that might leave an empty middle where you don’t get much aid, and don’t have personal wealth. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordability https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordabi...
  - ensignavenger 3y ago
    "And can't afford it" I do appreciate their efforts, but I bet that they decide who can and can't afford it, probably based on rigid criteria that inflexibly denies at least some folks in the middle who really can't afford it. Edit: It is possible I am wrong, the Harvard website linked above at least gives the impression they work with folks in varied circumstances. My experience helping folks with aid programs has perhaps coloured my perspective on Harvards unfairly. I have no experience dealing with them. If you want to attend Harvard, by all means, please apply and give them a chance! It is worth the rhe shot.
    - tekla 3y ago
      I personally know of 3 first generation immigrant families who all made well less than $60K a year and with good grades, all 5 kids from them went to Ivy League schools with full scholarships.
- elijaht 3y ago
  Ivys have really generous financial aid across all income brackets in my experience. Came from a family that didn’t qualify for complete financial aid ($125k household income). My brother at Princeton pays very little out of pocket, maybe $5k? It was cheaper than any other school he applied to
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > Without an outright scholarship or wealthy background, how would you pay? I never bothered because I was an upper quartile student, not an outstanding one (I was distracted by the usual things). I needed in-state benefits and grants to afford college. This leads me to suspect there is no “academic middle class” at Harvard. Your suspicions are evidence of your suspicion? I'm not sure what you meant by "academic middle class": If you mean, in terms of academic skill, well of course - why would Harvard accept any but the best (and wealthiest and most powerful)? > the quality distribution of accepted candidates is roughly similar to most other universities too Recent experience with Ivy League undergraduates leads me to a believe that it's a pretty effing talented cohort. That statement may match the snobbery that many are (rightfully) suspicious of, but it's not that; they were just very impressive.
deleted 3y ago
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hnthrowaway0315 3y ago
Same for keju, most peasants did not apply.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  What percent of people took the test? My guess is that a very small percent of 18 year olds apply to Harvard, when you consider that not all graduate from high school, and only a small percent of students who graduate with high GPAs would even apply.

mannykannot 3y ago

Women could not participate, so it was definitely more cut-throat than Harvard for half the population. The article gives a figure of ~1M taking the provincial exam annually during the Ming dynasty, with the later Ming empire having a population in the range 160-200M. You are probably right about self-selection being greater for Harvard, then, given that just about anyone can, in principle, apply there.

CSSer 3y ago

Right. Without an outright scholarship or wealthy background, how would you pay? I never bothered because I was an upper quartile student, not an outstanding one (I was distracted by the usual things). I needed in-state benefits and grants to afford college. This leads me to suspect there is no “academic middle class” at Harvard. Ironically, I also suspect that despite that, the quality distribution of accepted candidates is roughly similar to most other universities too. Much of this personal suspicion stems from empirically utilizing online courses of theirs when I was in undergrad and observing students ask questions in recordings of course lectures. Of course they got into Harvard, but I was surprised how often many of them struck me as very normal in terms of ability to grasp material. I suppose the rest of it comes from some of the silly stuff I occasionally read in HBR. Heh.

jibe 3y ago
Without an outright scholarship or wealthy background, how would you pay Harvard and most top private schools are generous in financial support if you can’t afford it. Harvard is free for families making less the 85k. But you are right that might leave an empty middle where you don’t get much aid, and don’t have personal wealth. https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordability https://college.harvard.edu/admissions/why-harvard/affordabi...
- ensignavenger 3y ago
  "And can't afford it" I do appreciate their efforts, but I bet that they decide who can and can't afford it, probably based on rigid criteria that inflexibly denies at least some folks in the middle who really can't afford it. Edit: It is possible I am wrong, the Harvard website linked above at least gives the impression they work with folks in varied circumstances. My experience helping folks with aid programs has perhaps coloured my perspective on Harvards unfairly. I have no experience dealing with them. If you want to attend Harvard, by all means, please apply and give them a chance! It is worth the rhe shot.
  - tekla 3y ago
    I personally know of 3 first generation immigrant families who all made well less than $60K a year and with good grades, all 5 kids from them went to Ivy League schools with full scholarships.
elijaht 3y ago
Ivys have really generous financial aid across all income brackets in my experience. Came from a family that didn’t qualify for complete financial aid ($125k household income). My brother at Princeton pays very little out of pocket, maybe $5k? It was cheaper than any other school he applied to
wolverine876 3y ago
> Without an outright scholarship or wealthy background, how would you pay? I never bothered because I was an upper quartile student, not an outstanding one (I was distracted by the usual things). I needed in-state benefits and grants to afford college. This leads me to suspect there is no “academic middle class” at Harvard. Your suspicions are evidence of your suspicion? I'm not sure what you meant by "academic middle class": If you mean, in terms of academic skill, well of course - why would Harvard accept any but the best (and wealthiest and most powerful)? > the quality distribution of accepted candidates is roughly similar to most other universities too Recent experience with Ivy League undergraduates leads me to a believe that it's a pretty effing talented cohort. That statement may match the snobbery that many are (rightfully) suspicious of, but it's not that; they were just very impressive.

deleted 3y ago

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hnthrowaway0315 3y ago

Same for keju, most peasants did not apply.

gnicholas 3y ago
What percent of people took the test? My guess is that a very small percent of 18 year olds apply to Harvard, when you consider that not all graduate from high school, and only a small percent of students who graduate with high GPAs would even apply.