4 ms·

Can anyone recommend a good article comparing environmental lifecycle costs of EV vs combustion engine that include lithium and cobalt mining?

by daoboy 3y ago

barbazoo 3y ago
I’d love that too. What I want to know is the total impact of me keeping my 2016 ICE or if I should switch to a new EV, new because there are no used EVs really where I am.
- speedgoose 3y ago
  It’s not a trivial exercise. I think it’s important to look at the future pollution and compare without going into the sunk cost fallacy. The pollution from your existing car cannot be taken back and I think there is no point to make this pollution "worth it". Producing a new vehicle, that will generate a lot of pollution too, may be better over time. It will depend on your electricity grid and how much you drive. You old vehicle may also go on the used market and replace a much more polluting vehicle. It’s difficult to take into account all parameters.
  - x86x87 3y ago
    Producing the vehicle itself leads to pollution. The question is: is it better to buy a new vehicle (and polute a nonsignificant ammont) or is the polution of my current vehicle going to be less for its remaining life?
    - speedgoose 3y ago
      In my opinion, unless you destroy the new EV in its early life and the battery cannot be reused or recycled for some reasons, it's likely much better to sell your ICE now so it replaces a more polluting car. You could also compare the pollution per km in the remaining lifetime of your current car, and the pollution per km in the remaining lifetime of a new EV. Your local electricity grid may improve over the years, but you could ignore that.
      - x86x87 3y ago
        I think that's directionality how people think but is this based in reality or is this mostly wishful thinking triggere by the "EVs are good" propaganda?
- mechagodzilla 3y ago
  In terms of impact, think of it this way - As long as you sell your ICE car to someone else, it's still being driven and maybe it's displacing the purchase of a new ICE car, which is what we really want to prevent. Ideally we would just stop producing new ICE vehicles completely and repair/maintain/sell the existing fleet until it's no longer needed. Hopefully new EVs will also be driven for a very long time, and their on-going environmental impact will lessen as power production decarbonizes going forward. People focus a lot on 'personal' impact, but as long as the car is still being driven, it doesn't really matter who is doing the driving.
  - x86x87 3y ago
    It kind-of does matter. Buying something new always has a net negative impact. It's not because the old thing is not used, it's because you are incentivizing production of new things. (This is true even if you own an EV and you sell it and buy a new one)
  - PopAlongKid 3y ago
    >Hopefully new EVs will also be driven for a very long time Currently, the average age of cars on the road is 12.5 years. When someone tries to sell their 10-yr old EV, the buyer will know that a huge battery replacement bill looms, discouraging sales. "EV batteries typically cost at least $5,000. [...] an EV battery lasts 10 years on average before needing a replacement. In addition to requiring expensive batteries, today’s electric cars run into repair problems after collisions. EVs are still relatively new to the market, so finding replacement body and battery housing parts can be difficult. Additionally, EVs typically have more expensive technology (such as Tesla’s Autopilot) that requires more expertise to repair."[0] [0]https://www.motorbiscuit.com/do-electric-cars-last-longer-than-gas-cars/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/do-electric-cars-last-longer-th...
burkaman 3y ago
This is a good one from the head of research at Our World in Data: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/ev-fossil-cars-climate https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/ev-fossil-cars-cli... Also a followup about air pollution, but this doesn't include production: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electric-vehicles-air-pollution https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electric-vehicles-...
- daoboy 3y ago
  Thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for.
xbmcuser 3y ago
https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-of-electric-hybrid-and-combustion-engine-vehicles/ https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-o...
pkulak 3y ago
https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/amp/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-car... The takeaway is that any analysis that suggests gas cars are better, at the very least, assumes that gasoline exists in pools just under gas stations. But gas is mined, just like lithium, and gas cars require 100s of tonnes, instead of 100s of pounds.
- burkaman 3y ago
  Also, gas is single use, but lithium and cobalt are infinitely recyclable. When you calculate the environmental cost of producing your EV's battery, it's not really appropriate to assign all of that to just one car, because a lot of it will get recycled. This is the best argument I can think of when people start to talk about how awful lithium mining is for the planet. Yes, it does genuinely suck that we have to dig these giant holes in the ground, but at least when we find what we're looking for we don't ship it across the world and then literally set it on fire.
- pfdietz 3y ago
  The CO2 effects of gasoline use will far outweigh any effects of mining for EV materials.
imjonse 3y ago
BTW, besides the impact on climate, it's worth taking into account the effect of tailpipe emissions on health. This is where EVs have a big advantage especially in crowded areas.

Can anyone recommend a good article comparing environmental lifecycle costs of EV vs combustion engine that include lithium and cobalt mining?

by daoboy 3y ago

Can anyone recommend a good article comparing environmental lifecycle costs of EV vs combustion engine that include lithium and cobalt mining?

barbazoo 3y ago

I’d love that too. What I want to know is the total impact of me keeping my 2016 ICE or if I should switch to a new EV, new because there are no used EVs really where I am.

speedgoose 3y ago
It’s not a trivial exercise. I think it’s important to look at the future pollution and compare without going into the sunk cost fallacy. The pollution from your existing car cannot be taken back and I think there is no point to make this pollution "worth it". Producing a new vehicle, that will generate a lot of pollution too, may be better over time. It will depend on your electricity grid and how much you drive. You old vehicle may also go on the used market and replace a much more polluting vehicle. It’s difficult to take into account all parameters.
- x86x87 3y ago
  Producing the vehicle itself leads to pollution. The question is: is it better to buy a new vehicle (and polute a nonsignificant ammont) or is the polution of my current vehicle going to be less for its remaining life?
  - speedgoose 3y ago
    In my opinion, unless you destroy the new EV in its early life and the battery cannot be reused or recycled for some reasons, it's likely much better to sell your ICE now so it replaces a more polluting car. You could also compare the pollution per km in the remaining lifetime of your current car, and the pollution per km in the remaining lifetime of a new EV. Your local electricity grid may improve over the years, but you could ignore that.
    - x86x87 3y ago
      I think that's directionality how people think but is this based in reality or is this mostly wishful thinking triggere by the "EVs are good" propaganda?
mechagodzilla 3y ago
In terms of impact, think of it this way - As long as you sell your ICE car to someone else, it's still being driven and maybe it's displacing the purchase of a new ICE car, which is what we really want to prevent. Ideally we would just stop producing new ICE vehicles completely and repair/maintain/sell the existing fleet until it's no longer needed. Hopefully new EVs will also be driven for a very long time, and their on-going environmental impact will lessen as power production decarbonizes going forward. People focus a lot on 'personal' impact, but as long as the car is still being driven, it doesn't really matter who is doing the driving.
- x86x87 3y ago
  It kind-of does matter. Buying something new always has a net negative impact. It's not because the old thing is not used, it's because you are incentivizing production of new things. (This is true even if you own an EV and you sell it and buy a new one)
- PopAlongKid 3y ago
  >Hopefully new EVs will also be driven for a very long time Currently, the average age of cars on the road is 12.5 years. When someone tries to sell their 10-yr old EV, the buyer will know that a huge battery replacement bill looms, discouraging sales. "EV batteries typically cost at least $5,000. [...] an EV battery lasts 10 years on average before needing a replacement. In addition to requiring expensive batteries, today’s electric cars run into repair problems after collisions. EVs are still relatively new to the market, so finding replacement body and battery housing parts can be difficult. Additionally, EVs typically have more expensive technology (such as Tesla’s Autopilot) that requires more expertise to repair."[0] [0]https://www.motorbiscuit.com/do-electric-cars-last-longer-than-gas-cars/ https://www.motorbiscuit.com/do-electric-cars-last-longer-th...

burkaman 3y ago

This is a good one from the head of research at Our World in Data: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/ev-fossil-cars-climate https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/ev-fossil-cars-cli... Also a followup about air pollution, but this doesn't include production: https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electric-vehicles-air-pollution https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/electric-vehicles-...

daoboy 3y ago
Thank you! That was exactly what I was looking for.

xbmcuser 3y ago

https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-of-electric-hybrid-and-combustion-engine-vehicles/ https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/life-cycle-emissions-o...

pkulak 3y ago

https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-cars-ad-why-you-are-being-lied-to/amp/ https://www.motortrend.com/features/truth-about-electric-car... The takeaway is that any analysis that suggests gas cars are better, at the very least, assumes that gasoline exists in pools just under gas stations. But gas is mined, just like lithium, and gas cars require 100s of tonnes, instead of 100s of pounds.

burkaman 3y ago
Also, gas is single use, but lithium and cobalt are infinitely recyclable. When you calculate the environmental cost of producing your EV's battery, it's not really appropriate to assign all of that to just one car, because a lot of it will get recycled. This is the best argument I can think of when people start to talk about how awful lithium mining is for the planet. Yes, it does genuinely suck that we have to dig these giant holes in the ground, but at least when we find what we're looking for we don't ship it across the world and then literally set it on fire.
pfdietz 3y ago
The CO2 effects of gasoline use will far outweigh any effects of mining for EV materials.

imjonse 3y ago

BTW, besides the impact on climate, it's worth taking into account the effect of tailpipe emissions on health. This is where EVs have a big advantage especially in crowded areas.