4 ms·

It’s also business climate (regulation) and crime. While SF I’d not Cal it’s a bell weather and businesses are rethinking NY State and Cal. Of course for many

by mc32 3y ago

It’s also business climate (regulation) and crime. While SF I’d not Cal it’s a bell weather and businesses are rethinking NY State and Cal. Of course for many it’s still viable to stay but some have moved and some more are considering it. I don’t mean it’ll become Detroit —a one trick pony, and collapse but it could mimic 1980s NYC when biz moved across the river.

dangus 3y ago
Is it really crime? San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston all have higher burglary rates than Oakland, CA and San Francisco. New York City has the lowest burglary rate on the entire top 100 list. Dallas and Houston have higher total violent crime rates than Los Angeles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... Speaking of regulation, could it be that businesses prefer Texas due to poor workers' rights? https://www.keranews.org/news/2022-09-13/texas-is-one-of-the-worst-states-in-the-country-for-workers-heres-why https://www.keranews.org/news/2022-09-13/texas-is-one-of-the... I'm also unsure what California business climate is stifling businesses there, considering it is the #1 GDP economy in the country, 5th highest state in GDP per capita, and only 5 or 6 entire countries in the world have larger economies. Is there a specific regulation that is stopping your business idea from working in California?
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  Business climate.
  - dangus 3y ago
    I misread you, fixed my comment. But I'm still confused, what is not good about the business climate? It is the #1 GDP in the country, #5 GDP per capita, larger than all but 5 or 6 countries in the entire world. Home to a huge number of companies in the S&P 500 like Alphabet, Apple, Meta, Chevron, Intel, Walt Disney, HP, Cisco, Oracle, and the list goes on. Why haven't they moved to other states? What, specifically, is bad about the business climate in California? And I'm talking about things that can't be easily refuted with basic facts.
    - civilitty 3y ago
      The sentiment is as old as the gold rush and it’s nonsense. I’ve heard people proclaim the end of business in California since the day I moved here and the only notable example I can think of in 30 years is Tesla moving their HQ… and they just announced this year that they’re building a new “engineering HQ” in California anyway. A lot of the downsides that people like to complain about California like regulatory burden, bureaucracy, and high taxes are mostly true, but until housing cost skyrocketed in the last decade none of that mattered to most people. The vast majority of California’s problems stem from unbalanced supply and demand across a number of goods and services. Ever since the budgetary woes of the 2000s, the state government has really turned it around and with all the laws tackling the housing problem passed in the last few years, California is going to keep on trucking just like haters gonna keep on hating (which they should, we’re overpopulated enough as it is).
      - dangus 3y ago
        The bureaucracy is exaggerated, too. Every large municipality and state has it. California isn’t unique and the idea that they are an extremely high tax state is also bunk (nobody seems to make a stink on the national stage about the high taxation status of Minnesota, Rhode Island, or New Jersey, 3 of the 9 states with higher overall tax rates than California). California is just a political target by a certain party that fumbled their previous dominance of elections in the state and remains butthurt about it, and they can make the entire state into a scapegoat because they know they’ll never control the state again anyway. https://www.ocregister.com/2019/12/02/the-decline-and-fall-of-californias-republican-party/ https://www.ocregister.com/2019/12/02/the-decline-and-fall-o...
        acdha 3y ago
        The taxes also vary widely depending on your circumstances. Rich people complain loudly for obvious reasons but everyone I know who’s done that found the difference to be far less significant, or even negative since they needed to pay more for private alternatives to state services. There is a difference but it’s not what popular mythology would have you believe.
- somenameforme 3y ago
  As per the source you linked, San Francisco has the 4th highest property crime rate in the US, with about 1 in every 16 people being victimized per year. There was also a joke headline a while back: 'San Francisco becomes first city to eliminate crime, after legalizing all crime.' Like in all good jokes there's a shade of truth - when crimes are not reported, not prosecuted, or reclassified then they do not show up in crime stats. DAs that choose not to pursue/prosecute crimes, and people choosing not to report them (perhaps because of no expectation in justice), will bring down crime rate stats, without bringing down crime rates.
  - dangus 3y ago
    I picked out burglary rates because that’s the type of property crime that impacts businesses. Speculating on effectiveness of the DA and how much crime goes unreported would have to benchmark other cities to be meaningful. We can’t just assume that crime is more frequently reported and prosecuted elsewhere based on a joke headline. Ironically, SF’s property crime problem is likely heavily impacted by the high demand to live there in the first place and the resulting high cost of housing. SF can alleviate crime by building housing, but I’m not sure how Peoria, IL, Steubenville, OH, or Bridgeport, CT solve their crime and drug issues long term. At least SF has a clear path out.
    - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
      Doesn’t matter if you have a path if you realistically won’t follow it.
    - somenameforme 3y ago
      Burglary is breaking and entering. Theft is the main issue affecting businesses in San Francisco, for which it has the second highest rate in the country. People come in, take whatever they want, and leave. If it's under $950, it's a misdemeanor. And that's if the perp is caught and charged. The law only works as a deterrence for crime when there is a reasonably high chance of being caught, and the consequences work as a significant deterrent. To their credit the San Francisco Police Department have a pretty nice page on this exact issue here. [1] Not so much to their credit, the clearance rate (cases solved) for theft is at 3.4%. Then those get sent over to the DA who may or may not even choose to prosecute it. There's also things like community courts [2] that can help ensure you get the most gentle slap on the wrist if caught. Pair these systems alongside the surplus of high value targets, and it just seems like you're creating an extremely enticing area for thieves. I also imagine this all has to be extremely demoralizing for police, which one could expect would lead to something of a downward spiral. It's just generally not a great situation. [1] - https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/clearance-rates-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/clea... [2] - https://www.sfdistrictattorney.org/policy/restorative-justice/neighborhood-courts/ https://www.sfdistrictattorney.org/policy/restorative-justic...
- dehrmann 3y ago
  Burglary is famously underreported in some of those cities.
- InSteady 3y ago
  This often gets overlooked, but if California were it's own country it would rank as the 5th largest GDP in the world. $3.6 trillion GDP in 2022.

by mc32 3y ago

dangus 3y ago

Is it really crime? San Antonio, Dallas, and Houston all have higher burglary rates than Oakland, CA and San Francisco. New York City has the lowest burglary rate on the entire top 100 list. Dallas and Houston have higher total violent crime rates than Los Angeles. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... Speaking of regulation, could it be that businesses prefer Texas due to poor workers' rights? https://www.keranews.org/news/2022-09-13/texas-is-one-of-the-worst-states-in-the-country-for-workers-heres-why https://www.keranews.org/news/2022-09-13/texas-is-one-of-the... I'm also unsure what California business climate is stifling businesses there, considering it is the #1 GDP economy in the country, 5th highest state in GDP per capita, and only 5 or 6 entire countries in the world have larger economies. Is there a specific regulation that is stopping your business idea from working in California?

selimthegrim 3y ago
Business climate.
- dangus 3y ago
  I misread you, fixed my comment. But I'm still confused, what is not good about the business climate? It is the #1 GDP in the country, #5 GDP per capita, larger than all but 5 or 6 countries in the entire world. Home to a huge number of companies in the S&P 500 like Alphabet, Apple, Meta, Chevron, Intel, Walt Disney, HP, Cisco, Oracle, and the list goes on. Why haven't they moved to other states? What, specifically, is bad about the business climate in California? And I'm talking about things that can't be easily refuted with basic facts.
  - civilitty 3y ago
    The sentiment is as old as the gold rush and it’s nonsense. I’ve heard people proclaim the end of business in California since the day I moved here and the only notable example I can think of in 30 years is Tesla moving their HQ… and they just announced this year that they’re building a new “engineering HQ” in California anyway. A lot of the downsides that people like to complain about California like regulatory burden, bureaucracy, and high taxes are mostly true, but until housing cost skyrocketed in the last decade none of that mattered to most people. The vast majority of California’s problems stem from unbalanced supply and demand across a number of goods and services. Ever since the budgetary woes of the 2000s, the state government has really turned it around and with all the laws tackling the housing problem passed in the last few years, California is going to keep on trucking just like haters gonna keep on hating (which they should, we’re overpopulated enough as it is).
    - dangus 3y ago
      The bureaucracy is exaggerated, too. Every large municipality and state has it. California isn’t unique and the idea that they are an extremely high tax state is also bunk (nobody seems to make a stink on the national stage about the high taxation status of Minnesota, Rhode Island, or New Jersey, 3 of the 9 states with higher overall tax rates than California). California is just a political target by a certain party that fumbled their previous dominance of elections in the state and remains butthurt about it, and they can make the entire state into a scapegoat because they know they’ll never control the state again anyway. https://www.ocregister.com/2019/12/02/the-decline-and-fall-of-californias-republican-party/ https://www.ocregister.com/2019/12/02/the-decline-and-fall-o...
      - acdha 3y ago
        The taxes also vary widely depending on your circumstances. Rich people complain loudly for obvious reasons but everyone I know who’s done that found the difference to be far less significant, or even negative since they needed to pay more for private alternatives to state services. There is a difference but it’s not what popular mythology would have you believe.
somenameforme 3y ago
As per the source you linked, San Francisco has the 4th highest property crime rate in the US, with about 1 in every 16 people being victimized per year. There was also a joke headline a while back: 'San Francisco becomes first city to eliminate crime, after legalizing all crime.' Like in all good jokes there's a shade of truth - when crimes are not reported, not prosecuted, or reclassified then they do not show up in crime stats. DAs that choose not to pursue/prosecute crimes, and people choosing not to report them (perhaps because of no expectation in justice), will bring down crime rate stats, without bringing down crime rates.
- dangus 3y ago
  I picked out burglary rates because that’s the type of property crime that impacts businesses. Speculating on effectiveness of the DA and how much crime goes unreported would have to benchmark other cities to be meaningful. We can’t just assume that crime is more frequently reported and prosecuted elsewhere based on a joke headline. Ironically, SF’s property crime problem is likely heavily impacted by the high demand to live there in the first place and the resulting high cost of housing. SF can alleviate crime by building housing, but I’m not sure how Peoria, IL, Steubenville, OH, or Bridgeport, CT solve their crime and drug issues long term. At least SF has a clear path out.
  - zeroonetwothree 3y ago
    Doesn’t matter if you have a path if you realistically won’t follow it.
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Burglary is breaking and entering. Theft is the main issue affecting businesses in San Francisco, for which it has the second highest rate in the country. People come in, take whatever they want, and leave. If it's under $950, it's a misdemeanor. And that's if the perp is caught and charged. The law only works as a deterrence for crime when there is a reasonably high chance of being caught, and the consequences work as a significant deterrent. To their credit the San Francisco Police Department have a pretty nice page on this exact issue here. [1] Not so much to their credit, the clearance rate (cases solved) for theft is at 3.4%. Then those get sent over to the DA who may or may not even choose to prosecute it. There's also things like community courts [2] that can help ensure you get the most gentle slap on the wrist if caught. Pair these systems alongside the surplus of high value targets, and it just seems like you're creating an extremely enticing area for thieves. I also imagine this all has to be extremely demoralizing for police, which one could expect would lead to something of a downward spiral. It's just generally not a great situation. [1] - https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/clearance-rates-dashboard https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/stay-safe/crime-data/clea... [2] - https://www.sfdistrictattorney.org/policy/restorative-justice/neighborhood-courts/ https://www.sfdistrictattorney.org/policy/restorative-justic...
dehrmann 3y ago
Burglary is famously underreported in some of those cities.
InSteady 3y ago
This often gets overlooked, but if California were it's own country it would rank as the 5th largest GDP in the world. $3.6 trillion GDP in 2022.