7 ms·

Isn’t sales a numbers game for the most part? Like you can convert 10% of leads, so if I need 5 conversions instead of 4, I need to call ~10 more people? A bet

by lukevp 3y ago

Isn’t sales a numbers game for the most part? Like you can convert 10% of leads, so if I need 5 conversions instead of 4, I need to call ~10 more people? A better comparison to software I think would be construction of a novel building. Try constructing a geodesic dome house with no experience, and little knowledge of the issues you might run into, but then you’re asked for accurate estimates and then pressured to shorten them.

paulddraper 3y ago
> I need to call ~10 more people? I need to write 10 more lines, code for 10 for minutes, etc.
- replyifuagree 3y ago
  Maybe bonus developers on lines of code written? Or my personal favorite, bugs fixed! https://devhumor.com/media/dilbert-s-team-writes-a-minivan https://devhumor.com/media/dilbert-s-team-writes-a-minivan
- lelandbatey 3y ago
  Except a sale is a sale; did they buy it or did they not? There's additional nuance for whether they'll buy again or what support they need going forward, but a sale is still a sale. A program is not just a program. A bug fix is not just a bug fix. They are not fungible, while sales, definitionally due to the exchange of money, are fungible.
  - thfuran 3y ago
    Taking a narrow view, maybe. But a sale in a jurisdiction you don’t currently have other customers in could impose significant regulatory burden for relatively little gain. A single 100x sale is very different than 100 1x sales both in overhead you’ll have and in how much leverage the customer will have in the future, etc
    - replyifuagree 3y ago
      If we consider that Fungibility is on a continuum of very low on the left and very high on the right. Where do you think most sales fall on the continuum? I'd claim that businesses are biased toward chasing a highly fungible sales model, to the point of eliminating the need for a salesperson altogether, and so naturally sales tends to the right.
      - thfuran 3y ago
        That's definitely the sort of thing I'd expect Generic Tech Startup to do, but it certainly isn't standard in every industry. B2B stuff is often a bit bespoke.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- xctr94 3y ago
  This is ridiculous. The number of LOC doesn’t define whether something is well implemented. You can’t crank out a better design or proper feature implementation by asking developers to write code faster or write more code in a given day.
  - c0pium 3y ago
    You’re restating their point, just with more words.
    - replyifuagree 3y ago
      Not really, the shotgun approach actually works with sales - especially if the sales force has been slacking and not chasing leads. Whereas with code, deleting code and writing less code is very much preferred because each line of code written increases the complexity and risk in the system. This is why business teams who are shirking discovery and instead focusing on the anti-pattern of trying to increase engineering productivity is such a massive mistake. Not only is the team pooping out code that doesn't fill a need (and hence won't be monetized), but they are also rapidly increasing complexity and opening the business to future liability when the code causes customers to seek remediation. The quarter driven nature of most companies amplifies this bad behavior. This is why we see this revolving door of executives who come in, drive some bad initiative to incompletion, declare success and move on before their chickens come home to roost.
      - c0pium 3y ago
        None of that is how sales works. “Just try harder” is bad advice in basically any context. Everyone in this thread is trying to point out to you that your assumptions about sales are the same as the LoC assumption that equivalently clueless people make about software.
        replyifuagree 3y ago
        There is a proven relationship between contacts made and sales made. Which is why sales managers constantly push sales staff to be making calls. Sales has been around for way longer than development, the underlying theory for sales is well known. Just like the underlying theory for manufacturing is well known.
ghaff 3y ago
>Isn’t sales a numbers game for the most part? At some level. But numbers aren't created equal and sales reps aren't usually supposed to be calling numbers out of a telephone book. Depending on the type of sales rep, they're hopefully reaching out to people who have been qualified to some degree. The email I got from a sales rep at my own company on Friday afternoon asking for a call about my requirements? That wasn't a well-qualified lead for whatever reason. (Not their fault; I'm sure they're just working from a list.)

by lukevp 3y ago

paulddraper 3y ago

> I need to call ~10 more people? I need to write 10 more lines, code for 10 for minutes, etc.

replyifuagree 3y ago
Maybe bonus developers on lines of code written? Or my personal favorite, bugs fixed! https://devhumor.com/media/dilbert-s-team-writes-a-minivan https://devhumor.com/media/dilbert-s-team-writes-a-minivan
lelandbatey 3y ago
Except a sale is a sale; did they buy it or did they not? There's additional nuance for whether they'll buy again or what support they need going forward, but a sale is still a sale. A program is not just a program. A bug fix is not just a bug fix. They are not fungible, while sales, definitionally due to the exchange of money, are fungible.
- thfuran 3y ago
  Taking a narrow view, maybe. But a sale in a jurisdiction you don’t currently have other customers in could impose significant regulatory burden for relatively little gain. A single 100x sale is very different than 100 1x sales both in overhead you’ll have and in how much leverage the customer will have in the future, etc
  - replyifuagree 3y ago
    If we consider that Fungibility is on a continuum of very low on the left and very high on the right. Where do you think most sales fall on the continuum? I'd claim that businesses are biased toward chasing a highly fungible sales model, to the point of eliminating the need for a salesperson altogether, and so naturally sales tends to the right.
    - thfuran 3y ago
      That's definitely the sort of thing I'd expect Generic Tech Startup to do, but it certainly isn't standard in every industry. B2B stuff is often a bit bespoke.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
xctr94 3y ago
This is ridiculous. The number of LOC doesn’t define whether something is well implemented. You can’t crank out a better design or proper feature implementation by asking developers to write code faster or write more code in a given day.
- c0pium 3y ago
  You’re restating their point, just with more words.
  - replyifuagree 3y ago
    Not really, the shotgun approach actually works with sales - especially if the sales force has been slacking and not chasing leads. Whereas with code, deleting code and writing less code is very much preferred because each line of code written increases the complexity and risk in the system. This is why business teams who are shirking discovery and instead focusing on the anti-pattern of trying to increase engineering productivity is such a massive mistake. Not only is the team pooping out code that doesn't fill a need (and hence won't be monetized), but they are also rapidly increasing complexity and opening the business to future liability when the code causes customers to seek remediation. The quarter driven nature of most companies amplifies this bad behavior. This is why we see this revolving door of executives who come in, drive some bad initiative to incompletion, declare success and move on before their chickens come home to roost.
    - c0pium 3y ago
      None of that is how sales works. “Just try harder” is bad advice in basically any context. Everyone in this thread is trying to point out to you that your assumptions about sales are the same as the LoC assumption that equivalently clueless people make about software.
      - replyifuagree 3y ago
        There is a proven relationship between contacts made and sales made. Which is why sales managers constantly push sales staff to be making calls. Sales has been around for way longer than development, the underlying theory for sales is well known. Just like the underlying theory for manufacturing is well known.

ghaff 3y ago

>Isn’t sales a numbers game for the most part? At some level. But numbers aren't created equal and sales reps aren't usually supposed to be calling numbers out of a telephone book. Depending on the type of sales rep, they're hopefully reaching out to people who have been qualified to some degree. The email I got from a sales rep at my own company on Friday afternoon asking for a call about my requirements? That wasn't a well-qualified lead for whatever reason. (Not their fault; I'm sure they're just working from a list.)