3 ms·

I couldn’t agree more and it’s something I didn’t understand at all until my final year at university. I was talking with one of my professors and complained ab

I couldn’t agree more and it’s something I didn’t understand at all until my final year at university. I was talking with one of my professors and complained about having to learn and use SML and Eiffel for some projects when in the real world, I’d be using something like C (this was 1994). He asked me if I was there for an education or training. I think today it’s probably more true than ever. Schools are under pressure to turn out grads who will be productive on day one and I think it’s shortsighted.

intothemild 3y ago
I completely agree here. The problem was that there was a shortage of developers, and that most universities still only had CompSci degrees, not Software Engineering degrees, coupled with those degrees were 3-4 years long... So enter the code bootcamp, where you're basically given a hammer, and taught that every problem can be solved with it.. Now those bootcamps aren't all like this, and there were and are good ones out there.. ...but from what I've seen (I want to stress that this has happened rarely compared to the rest) a graduate of one of faster bootcamps, that learned a single language, like JavaScript, and try and solve every problem with whatever answer they found someone else upvoting.. without any amounts of thinking if it's the right solution for this specific problem. The problem is as your professor said. Do you want an education or training... And also as you said, that you can't turn out effective software engineers with a quick or short amount of education.
- brandall10 3y ago
  "and that most universities still only had CompSci degrees, not Software Engineering degrees" Is a Software Engineering degree really a thing? Perhaps outside the US? Can you point to a notable university that has this major? A quick search gives me the impression this is an online correspondence program type of thing. At UCSD in the late 90s we had a Software Engineering class but that was it. Otherwise internships were supposed to prepare you for your careeer.
  - sgarland 3y ago
    UT Austin has an undergrad Electrical and Computer Engineering program, which you can specialize into Software Engineering and Systems. That’s about as close as you’ll get, I think, and since it’s ECE you’ll also have a fair amount of hardware experience - not a bad thing IMO. They do have a full SWE track as a Master’s program, which I did, and quite enjoyed.
  - Nouser76 3y ago
    https://bulletins.psu.edu/undergraduate/colleges/behrend/software-engineering-bs/ https://bulletins.psu.edu/undergraduate/colleges/behrend/sof... Penn State has one.
- drzaiusx11 3y ago
  My state university (UMass) education's CS degree had us working directly with CPUs and logic gates on breadboards (made an ALU!) We even designed our own x86-like CPU ISA to be run via simulation with our own progams. We built and programed robots from discrete components and microcontrollers written in assembly. Made our own rudimentary OS, including threading with mutexes and semaphores. Built our own pine-like terminal email client from scratch. Created design docs for our own games and executed on them in sprint teams throughout the semesters. I cannot stress how important my education was to my current understanding and success as a software engineer in the field. A poor education is a huge detriment. When I joined the workforce I found many colleagues without one ill prepared for some of the basics, like debugging kills, using tools outside their domain expertise, etc. That said I don't think a formal education is REQUIRED, but without one you need a certain kind of perseverance and thirst for knowledge not everyone has. I've had the pleasure of working with several folks in that category, so a formal degree isn't for everyone. Today, it appears specialization is happening much earlier in the education process without a general foundation. Specialists will always be needed, and larger orgs can get by just fine with exclusively specialists, as long as their communication skills exist to prevent silos. Larger companies can afford this. However a good generalist can replace a team of specialists when the latter budget is out of the question; a huge win for smaller orgs, start-ups etc. The old joke that a good generalist is the "jack of all trades, master of none" has some truth to it, but as with all things, it's a tradeoff. A team of qualified specialists will definitely produce better work within their domain expertise, but at a cost that can be prohibitive when "good enough" is within reach.
pjmlp 3y ago
In some countries, e.g. Portugal, this is sorted how by having two university systems, and technical schools. One wants to go straight into the work market, with focus on getting the bases, technical school. One wants to go into the work market, with some more preparation than only the bases, polytechnic institut. One wants to go into the work market, with overall experience, in a degree certified by the engineering order as qualified for professional title certification exam, university.

intothemild 3y ago

I completely agree here. The problem was that there was a shortage of developers, and that most universities still only had CompSci degrees, not Software Engineering degrees, coupled with those degrees were 3-4 years long... So enter the code bootcamp, where you're basically given a hammer, and taught that every problem can be solved with it.. Now those bootcamps aren't all like this, and there were and are good ones out there.. ...but from what I've seen (I want to stress that this has happened rarely compared to the rest) a graduate of one of faster bootcamps, that learned a single language, like JavaScript, and try and solve every problem with whatever answer they found someone else upvoting.. without any amounts of thinking if it's the right solution for this specific problem. The problem is as your professor said. Do you want an education or training... And also as you said, that you can't turn out effective software engineers with a quick or short amount of education.

brandall10 3y ago
"and that most universities still only had CompSci degrees, not Software Engineering degrees" Is a Software Engineering degree really a thing? Perhaps outside the US? Can you point to a notable university that has this major? A quick search gives me the impression this is an online correspondence program type of thing. At UCSD in the late 90s we had a Software Engineering class but that was it. Otherwise internships were supposed to prepare you for your careeer.
- sgarland 3y ago
  UT Austin has an undergrad Electrical and Computer Engineering program, which you can specialize into Software Engineering and Systems. That’s about as close as you’ll get, I think, and since it’s ECE you’ll also have a fair amount of hardware experience - not a bad thing IMO. They do have a full SWE track as a Master’s program, which I did, and quite enjoyed.
- Nouser76 3y ago
  https://bulletins.psu.edu/undergraduate/colleges/behrend/software-engineering-bs/ https://bulletins.psu.edu/undergraduate/colleges/behrend/sof... Penn State has one.
drzaiusx11 3y ago
My state university (UMass) education's CS degree had us working directly with CPUs and logic gates on breadboards (made an ALU!) We even designed our own x86-like CPU ISA to be run via simulation with our own progams. We built and programed robots from discrete components and microcontrollers written in assembly. Made our own rudimentary OS, including threading with mutexes and semaphores. Built our own pine-like terminal email client from scratch. Created design docs for our own games and executed on them in sprint teams throughout the semesters. I cannot stress how important my education was to my current understanding and success as a software engineer in the field. A poor education is a huge detriment. When I joined the workforce I found many colleagues without one ill prepared for some of the basics, like debugging kills, using tools outside their domain expertise, etc. That said I don't think a formal education is REQUIRED, but without one you need a certain kind of perseverance and thirst for knowledge not everyone has. I've had the pleasure of working with several folks in that category, so a formal degree isn't for everyone. Today, it appears specialization is happening much earlier in the education process without a general foundation. Specialists will always be needed, and larger orgs can get by just fine with exclusively specialists, as long as their communication skills exist to prevent silos. Larger companies can afford this. However a good generalist can replace a team of specialists when the latter budget is out of the question; a huge win for smaller orgs, start-ups etc. The old joke that a good generalist is the "jack of all trades, master of none" has some truth to it, but as with all things, it's a tradeoff. A team of qualified specialists will definitely produce better work within their domain expertise, but at a cost that can be prohibitive when "good enough" is within reach.

pjmlp 3y ago

In some countries, e.g. Portugal, this is sorted how by having two university systems, and technical schools. One wants to go straight into the work market, with focus on getting the bases, technical school. One wants to go into the work market, with some more preparation than only the bases, polytechnic institut. One wants to go into the work market, with overall experience, in a degree certified by the engineering order as qualified for professional title certification exam, university.