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> The thumb of the people elected, time and time again, for several decades. I feel like you haven't bothered to read or understand what I've written. There a

> The thumb of the people elected, time and time again, for several decades. I feel like you haven't bothered to read or understand what I've written. There are innumerable books on the topic, which go into depth about exactly who the people were, and the reasons they wanted to build highways, including the explicit racism. If the people want racism, and vote in racists to enforce racism - which these highways did - then I am not going to pretend that what they wanted is something that I want, nor something that should be continued to be supported. > I have not used that term once in this thread. I apologize. I didn't see that you took up the exchange after baggy_trough made that comment. Your two viewpoints were very similar. > So what, the the police just come up with zoning rules on their own? No. You asked what forces people to make that choice. Zoning laws, enforced by the police, prevent people from having the full range of choice. People choose from the options that exist. > Richardson, TX? Plano, TX? I looked around Richardson using Google Street View. It does not look like a place where it is easy to live comfortably without a car. It looks like standard R1 residential with most businesses on stroads meant primarily for cars. Let's take 414 Salem Dr, which is for-sale, according to Zillo, and near the geographic center of the city. There is an elementary school in walking distance, and a grocery store a mile away on W. Campbell. If after dinner you realize you need milk for the next morning, only the most dedicated of walkers will do the 40 minutes round-trip walk to pick them up vs. driving. How do you visit the library? My local library has events for parents with newborns, and for young children. The nearest library to that address is the Richardson Public Library. It estimates 52 minutes walk time, or 47 minutes by bus (of which 35 minutes are walking). How many parents are going to do that walk instead of drive? If on Saturday your 12-year-old wants to meet up with friends at the library "to work on a school project" (but really just to hang out), do you let the kid walk nearly an hour to the Richardson Public Library, along Campbell road and under I-75? There is no bus service for Saturdays. This is a car-dependent neighborhood. The fact that you think otherwise mostly shows you don't know what's missing. > who would prefer to live in denser urban areas Again, you are missing the point. There are people who want to live in denser suburban areas. I pointed you to a video comparing two suburban areas, one in the US and one in Germany. The fact that you think the only alternatives are single-family suburbs or dense urban is because that's the only two choices in most of the US. >> of course not! No. I mean that when I bought a house in a suburb even I wasn't all "wake up every day thinking "man I really hate living here, welp, guess I'll do nothing about it!"". Since I wasn't that way, why should I think others are? Your strawman position seems put out just to be silly, not meaningful. > they enjoy living in the suburbs! And how much should they be subsidized for their expensive choice which sucks tax dollars from poorer neighborhoods?

vel0city 3y ago
Ok yeah, if you look at a single location and ignore the multitude of other neighborhoods that aren't like that, you'll find that experience. For note though, normally the library is at Arapaho just outside the neighborhood, so an easy and pretty safe bike ride for a 12 year old. It's at a temporary location due to a fire at City Hall leading to a lot of renovations. You're just completely ignoring all the stuff at Cityline. Walking distance to a grocer there. Right on the light rail. A few bus lines. That 12 year old could ride down to Arapaho station and hop on the bus to go to where the library usually is. Or living near Richardson Terrace. Or near Cottonwood Park. Or Glenville Park. Just because there's not a listing there today, this second, doesn't mean there won't be one there in a week or a month. Picking the right place to live, it's entirely possible to live car-free. I know what it's like and what's possible, as I did it for a bit. And once again you bring up zoning laws and just completely forget how those exist. Once again you're essentially arguing nobody has any control over zoning laws, they just appear from the ether ruining everyone's lives with everyone powerless to change them. It's too bad nobody could ever do anything about zoning laws, those were just written in stone 70 years ago by the gods and cannot possibly be changed by the people there. The suburbs ultimately are the way they are today because people keep voting for people who choose to not change the zoning laws. Our towns could be different if people wanted to change the laws, but the majority don't. You can point to all kinds of history (history I do know) as the reasons why they were originally built, but ultimately they're still there because that's what the majority of people living there choose. Ultimately, suburbs exist because that's what the majority of people choose. I'm not arguing it's right or wrong here, I'm just arguing against this concept that nobody really wants to live in the suburbs, they're only forced to. Some people are, sure, but not the majority. Don't get me wrong, I do want there to be more choice in housing. I'm happy places like Cityline and others exist. I vote for more transit, denser zoning, better bike infrastructure, etc. But I go to City Hall, I watch the streams for planning meetings. I talk to neighbors and friends. They way more often than not like the more car dependent suburbia. I'm often seen as a nut for choosing to take transit when I've got a perfectly good car. They wonder why I choose to bike places. So don't think I'm someone who is arguing against housing choice overall, I'm very much for it. But you can't change it if you don't acknowledge reality. And the reality is, most people currently living in suburbia want suburbia. Go read up about the Plano Tomorrow plan and all the local politics around that, then tell me nobody chooses the suburbs. Some planning for more density and suddenly city hall is packed with people ready to fight against it. I see this kind of stuff all over the country. https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/09/what-comes-after-plano-tomorrow-more-suburban-character/ https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/09/what-comes-aft... https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/07/23/heres-how-the-stunning-delay-on-controversial-plano-tomorrow-vote-might-shift-citys-political-dynamics/ https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/07/23/her...

vel0city 3y ago

Ok yeah, if you look at a single location and ignore the multitude of other neighborhoods that aren't like that, you'll find that experience. For note though, normally the library is at Arapaho just outside the neighborhood, so an easy and pretty safe bike ride for a 12 year old. It's at a temporary location due to a fire at City Hall leading to a lot of renovations. You're just completely ignoring all the stuff at Cityline. Walking distance to a grocer there. Right on the light rail. A few bus lines. That 12 year old could ride down to Arapaho station and hop on the bus to go to where the library usually is. Or living near Richardson Terrace. Or near Cottonwood Park. Or Glenville Park. Just because there's not a listing there today, this second, doesn't mean there won't be one there in a week or a month. Picking the right place to live, it's entirely possible to live car-free. I know what it's like and what's possible, as I did it for a bit. And once again you bring up zoning laws and just completely forget how those exist. Once again you're essentially arguing nobody has any control over zoning laws, they just appear from the ether ruining everyone's lives with everyone powerless to change them. It's too bad nobody could ever do anything about zoning laws, those were just written in stone 70 years ago by the gods and cannot possibly be changed by the people there. The suburbs ultimately are the way they are today because people keep voting for people who choose to not change the zoning laws. Our towns could be different if people wanted to change the laws, but the majority don't. You can point to all kinds of history (history I do know) as the reasons why they were originally built, but ultimately they're still there because that's what the majority of people living there choose. Ultimately, suburbs exist because that's what the majority of people choose. I'm not arguing it's right or wrong here, I'm just arguing against this concept that nobody really wants to live in the suburbs, they're only forced to. Some people are, sure, but not the majority. Don't get me wrong, I do want there to be more choice in housing. I'm happy places like Cityline and others exist. I vote for more transit, denser zoning, better bike infrastructure, etc. But I go to City Hall, I watch the streams for planning meetings. I talk to neighbors and friends. They way more often than not like the more car dependent suburbia. I'm often seen as a nut for choosing to take transit when I've got a perfectly good car. They wonder why I choose to bike places. So don't think I'm someone who is arguing against housing choice overall, I'm very much for it. But you can't change it if you don't acknowledge reality. And the reality is, most people currently living in suburbia want suburbia. Go read up about the Plano Tomorrow plan and all the local politics around that, then tell me nobody chooses the suburbs. Some planning for more density and suddenly city hall is packed with people ready to fight against it. I see this kind of stuff all over the country. https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/09/what-comes-after-plano-tomorrow-more-suburban-character/ https://www.dmagazine.com/frontburner/2021/09/what-comes-aft... https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/07/23/heres-how-the-stunning-delay-on-controversial-plano-tomorrow-vote-might-shift-citys-political-dynamics/ https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2019/07/23/her...