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The EU was a good idea at the start but it has been perverted and is becoming worse by the year. People looked at the USSR and knew this was bad idea and then t

The EU was a good idea at the start but it has been perverted and is becoming worse by the year. People looked at the USSR and knew this was bad idea and then they went on to do it again. It was supposed to be a community to facilitate trade between countries. Instead they want to make it a new country with its own flag, its own parliament, it's own army, it's own laws that supersede the laws of the member states. The British knew it and that is why they left. This was not supposed to be the plan. However nowadays criticizing the EU is like asking 2020 where COVID came from, you shouldn't talk about it because otherwise you may be labelled as a conspiracy theorist or even worse a populist.

kergonath 3y ago
> People looked at the USSR and knew this was bad idea and then they went on to do it again. I assume the next step is you explaining how and in what respects the EU is like the USSR. Because for now it’s not really convincing. For example, how the current decision process could lead to something like the Holodomor. In which way is the European Parliament like the supreme Soviet. How the political systems works to reinforce the power of the biggest member over its satellites. How the EU could do something like the invasion of Afghanistan. How it could bleed itself dry with a pointless arms race. You know, the sort of reasons why the USSR actually collapsed. > It was supposed to be a community to facilitate trade between countries. Sigh. It never was. From the beginning it was a union to prevent war between members. You can read on the Schuman declaration (1950) or the treaties of Paris (1951) and Rome (1957), for a start. > Instead they want to make it a new country with its own flag It’s not a new country, and it’s not a country at all. > its own parliament The common assembly, which became the European Parliament was created with the treaty of Paris in 1951, it cannot have come as a surprise to any member who joined afterwards. > it's own army It does not have an army. > it's own laws that supersede the laws of the member states. Again, this has been the case since the very beginning, when it was an alliance of 6 countries. How is this any new? Where is the deception? > The British knew it and that is why they left. This was not supposed to be the plan. The British left over internal politics and the dysfunction of their main political parties. One side did use the arguments you mentioned. It was bullshit then, and it is stil bullshit now. > However nowadays criticizing the EU is like asking 2020 where COVID came from, you shouldn't talk about it because otherwise you may be labelled as a conspiracy theorist or even worse a populist. You can. We’re living in democracies and we can criticise anything we want. The kind of blatant dishonesty and bad faith in your arguments is why you get those labels. Mainstream political parties criticise the EU all the time, both from left- and right-wing perspectives. If you’re from the UK, I am sorry but your problems come from your own government.
- RugnirViking 3y ago
  > Sigh. It never was It was literally called the european coal and steel community originally... It very much was about trade. It still is! Not nessacarily a bad thing but its not like it has an army or conducts other forms of foreign policy right now. It's a common market first and foremost, with most of its laws being product and workplace standards > It does not have an army. The prior commenter wasn't saying it currently has an army, and you know that. If you've been paying any attention at all to the news you'd know about the discussions of a common army, especially regarding Macron. 414 Tankbataljon in Netherlands was created as a sort of test, staffed with german and dutch soldiers. The French used to be opposed to this because they wanted their independant army, nuclear force, same with UK. UK left and french president thinks differently, its suddenly a lot more likely. > It’s not a new country, and it’s not a country at all. again, I'm convinced you're building a strawman here, nobody claimed its like this now, but its definately going in that direction. There is a ton of discussion around EU federalism, again surrounding macron. I used to be active in a political organisation that supported it, but im not that much of a fan personally nowadays because im disillusioned because of how undemocratic EU is up close. Those reasons are both related to instances of personal corruption I have seen but also to how I don't agree with the dual parlimentary setup, where elected positions hold much less importance in the lower house, and can't propose legislation. The upper house is entirely unelected and can propose legislation. Sure its members are appointed by in theory elected national governments but I don't think thats a good way to go about things, imo national elections style democracy is already a tenuous way to get the will of the people and each step away from elected positions is progressively worse. I see many people in european parliment patting themselves on the back and laughing about how silly they think american system of electors is while doing an imo even worse system. There are significant benefits to being a member no doubt, but that doesn't mean its a good system
  - kergonath 3y ago
    > It was literally called the european coal and steel community originally... It very much was about trade. It was not. You can read the thing and all the political arguments on why making countries interdependent was the means to the end of European peace and union (again, from the times of Schuman and Adenauer, so widely known well before the vast majority of the current member-states joined). Some well-known quotes: " World peace cannot be safeguarded without the making of creative efforts proportionate to the dangers which threaten it." "Europe will not be made all at once, or according to a single plan. It will be built through concrete achievements which first create a de facto solidarity. The coming together of the nations of Europe requires the elimination of the age-old opposition of France and Germany. Any action taken must in the first place concern these two countries. With this aim in view, the French Government proposes that action be taken immediately on one limited but decisive point. It proposes that Franco-German production of coal and steel as a whole be placed under a common High Authority, within the framework of an organization open to the participation of the other countries of Europe. The pooling of coal and steel production should immediately provide for the setting up of common foundations for economic development as a first step in the federation of Europe, and will change the destinies of those regions which have long been devoted to the manufacture of munitions of war, of which they have been the most constant victims." There is nothing in that even alluding to the fact that it was "only trade". And it's not some political fluff distinct from what the member-states signed up for: the language is just as explicit in the treaties of Paris (without an official English translation) and Rome. The coal and steel community had a high authority (with the same role as the European Commission now), a Common Assembly (same as the European Parliament), and drew resolution binding the member states. > It still is! Not nessacarily a bad thing but it's not like it has an army or conducts other forms of foreign policy right now. It does not have a foreign policy because its members-states don't want it to have one (well, in this case, mostly France, but others are quite happy about that as well). > It's a common market first and foremost, with most of its laws being product and workplace standards That's a profound misunderstanding. It is a political union first and foremost. The regulations are just a byproduct of this and the common market is the logical consequence. > The prior commenter wasn't saying it currently has an army, and you know that. If you've been paying any attention at all to the news you'd know about the discussions of a common army, especially regarding Macron. If you've been paying any attention at all, you'd have noticed that this did not happen and that he changed his stance. Do you know why? Because there won't be enough member-states in favour and there is no way the council reaches an agreement. Because fundamentally, all European political decisions are the result of the consensus of the member states and if they want to operate as coordinated national armies instead of an integrated European one, this is exactly what will happen. What won't happen is the Commission deciding one day that the EU has an army. > 414 Tankbataljon in Netherlands was created as a sort of test, staffed with german and dutch soldiers. The French used to be opposed to this because they wanted their independant army, nuclear force, same with UK. Are you aware that France and Germany have a very similar common brigade since 1986? So how on Earth do one come to the conclusion that France is hostile to this sort of things? What they don't want is lose their ability to take initiatives. > UK left and french president thinks differently, it's suddenly a lot more likely. There is no way in hell France gives up its control on its nuclear weapons. This is outside the scope of all of the European Army hypotheses that have been under discussion. > again, I'm convinced you're building a strawman here, nobody claimed its like this now, but its definately going in that direction. There is a ton of discussion around EU federalism, again surrounding macron. I used to be active in a political organisation that supported it, but im not that much of a fan personally nowadays because im disillusioned because of how undemocratic EU is up close. Well, plenty of people claim this. In any case, it is not going to that direction at all. How many federalist parties are there right now in the European Parliament? How many governments are talking about giving up their national sovereignty? And even if some of them wanted, no EU institution has any way of forcing that on the member states. Macron is not a federalist at all. He wants more integration in some areas (notably military spending and procurement, true). But if you believe he wants to give up things like industrial strategy, foreign policy or the ability to intervene militarily without having to convince the whole European Council, then you haven't been paying attention that much. Federalism is nothing new, it predates all the European Communities. It fell out of favour significantly after the 1980s, though. It is not a significant force nowadays and if anything, the EU as a single country is all but impossible now after the last rounds of enlargement. > Those reasons are both related to instances of personal corruption I have seen but also to how I don't agree with the dual parlimentary setup, where elected positions hold much less importance in the lower house, and can't propose legislation. The upper house is entirely unelected and can propose legislation. Sure its members are appointed by in theory elected national governments but I don't think thats a good way to go about things, imo national elections style democracy is already a tenuous way to get the will of the people and each step away from elected positions is progressively worse. I see many people in european parliment patting themselves on the back and laughing about how silly they think american system of electors is while doing an imo even worse system. I am not going to claim that the EU is perfect; it very much is not. The parliament is more legitimate now than it used to be (direct election of the MEPs is an improvement according to your criteria), but it lacks power and the Commission has too much freedom to ram regulations through parliament. But it has enough flaws and there is no need to make it look worse than it is. All the points the parent mentioned (the single country, the army, the "it's only supposed to be about trade", etc) are populist talking points that are false and dishonest in the mouth of all politicians who ought to know better. People resorting to them uncritically without understanding how absurd they sound is quite annoying. > There are significant benefits to being a member no doubt, but that doesn't mean its a good system It'd have to be really, really bad to be worse than what we had before. At the end of the day, if a country is better in it than outside, then it is a good system. Probably not a perfect one, but then no system is.

kergonath 3y ago

> People looked at the USSR and knew this was bad idea and then they went on to do it again. I assume the next step is you explaining how and in what respects the EU is like the USSR. Because for now it’s not really convincing. For example, how the current decision process could lead to something like the Holodomor. In which way is the European Parliament like the supreme Soviet. How the political systems works to reinforce the power of the biggest member over its satellites. How the EU could do something like the invasion of Afghanistan. How it could bleed itself dry with a pointless arms race. You know, the sort of reasons why the USSR actually collapsed. > It was supposed to be a community to facilitate trade between countries. Sigh. It never was. From the beginning it was a union to prevent war between members. You can read on the Schuman declaration (1950) or the treaties of Paris (1951) and Rome (1957), for a start. > Instead they want to make it a new country with its own flag It’s not a new country, and it’s not a country at all. > its own parliament The common assembly, which became the European Parliament was created with the treaty of Paris in 1951, it cannot have come as a surprise to any member who joined afterwards. > it's own army It does not have an army. > it's own laws that supersede the laws of the member states. Again, this has been the case since the very beginning, when it was an alliance of 6 countries. How is this any new? Where is the deception? > The British knew it and that is why they left. This was not supposed to be the plan. The British left over internal politics and the dysfunction of their main political parties. One side did use the arguments you mentioned. It was bullshit then, and it is stil bullshit now. > However nowadays criticizing the EU is like asking 2020 where COVID came from, you shouldn't talk about it because otherwise you may be labelled as a conspiracy theorist or even worse a populist. You can. We’re living in democracies and we can criticise anything we want. The kind of blatant dishonesty and bad faith in your arguments is why you get those labels. Mainstream political parties criticise the EU all the time, both from left- and right-wing perspectives. If you’re from the UK, I am sorry but your problems come from your own government.

RugnirViking 3y ago
> Sigh. It never was It was literally called the european coal and steel community originally... It very much was about trade. It still is! Not nessacarily a bad thing but its not like it has an army or conducts other forms of foreign policy right now. It's a common market first and foremost, with most of its laws being product and workplace standards > It does not have an army. The prior commenter wasn't saying it currently has an army, and you know that. If you've been paying any attention at all to the news you'd know about the discussions of a common army, especially regarding Macron. 414 Tankbataljon in Netherlands was created as a sort of test, staffed with german and dutch soldiers. The French used to be opposed to this because they wanted their independant army, nuclear force, same with UK. UK left and french president thinks differently, its suddenly a lot more likely. > It’s not a new country, and it’s not a country at all. again, I'm convinced you're building a strawman here, nobody claimed its like this now, but its definately going in that direction. There is a ton of discussion around EU federalism, again surrounding macron. I used to be active in a political organisation that supported it, but im not that much of a fan personally nowadays because im disillusioned because of how undemocratic EU is up close. Those reasons are both related to instances of personal corruption I have seen but also to how I don't agree with the dual parlimentary setup, where elected positions hold much less importance in the lower house, and can't propose legislation. The upper house is entirely unelected and can propose legislation. Sure its members are appointed by in theory elected national governments but I don't think thats a good way to go about things, imo national elections style democracy is already a tenuous way to get the will of the people and each step away from elected positions is progressively worse. I see many people in european parliment patting themselves on the back and laughing about how silly they think american system of electors is while doing an imo even worse system. There are significant benefits to being a member no doubt, but that doesn't mean its a good system
- kergonath 3y ago
  > It was literally called the european coal and steel community originally... It very much was about trade. It was not. You can read the thing and all the political arguments on why making countries interdependent was the means to the end of European peace and union (again, from the times of Schuman and Adenauer, so widely known well before the vast majority of the current member-states joined). Some well-known quotes: " World peace cannot be safeguarded without the making of creative efforts proportionate to the dangers which threaten it." "Europe will not be made all at once, or according to a single plan. It will be built through concrete achievements which first create a de facto solidarity. The coming together of the nations of Europe requires the elimination of the age-old opposition of France and Germany. Any action taken must in the first place concern these two countries. With this aim in view, the French Government proposes that action be taken immediately on one limited but decisive point. It proposes that Franco-German production of coal and steel as a whole be placed under a common High Authority, within the framework of an organization open to the participation of the other countries of Europe. The pooling of coal and steel production should immediately provide for the setting up of common foundations for economic development as a first step in the federation of Europe, and will change the destinies of those regions which have long been devoted to the manufacture of munitions of war, of which they have been the most constant victims." There is nothing in that even alluding to the fact that it was "only trade". And it's not some political fluff distinct from what the member-states signed up for: the language is just as explicit in the treaties of Paris (without an official English translation) and Rome. The coal and steel community had a high authority (with the same role as the European Commission now), a Common Assembly (same as the European Parliament), and drew resolution binding the member states. > It still is! Not nessacarily a bad thing but it's not like it has an army or conducts other forms of foreign policy right now. It does not have a foreign policy because its members-states don't want it to have one (well, in this case, mostly France, but others are quite happy about that as well). > It's a common market first and foremost, with most of its laws being product and workplace standards That's a profound misunderstanding. It is a political union first and foremost. The regulations are just a byproduct of this and the common market is the logical consequence. > The prior commenter wasn't saying it currently has an army, and you know that. If you've been paying any attention at all to the news you'd know about the discussions of a common army, especially regarding Macron. If you've been paying any attention at all, you'd have noticed that this did not happen and that he changed his stance. Do you know why? Because there won't be enough member-states in favour and there is no way the council reaches an agreement. Because fundamentally, all European political decisions are the result of the consensus of the member states and if they want to operate as coordinated national armies instead of an integrated European one, this is exactly what will happen. What won't happen is the Commission deciding one day that the EU has an army. > 414 Tankbataljon in Netherlands was created as a sort of test, staffed with german and dutch soldiers. The French used to be opposed to this because they wanted their independant army, nuclear force, same with UK. Are you aware that France and Germany have a very similar common brigade since 1986? So how on Earth do one come to the conclusion that France is hostile to this sort of things? What they don't want is lose their ability to take initiatives. > UK left and french president thinks differently, it's suddenly a lot more likely. There is no way in hell France gives up its control on its nuclear weapons. This is outside the scope of all of the European Army hypotheses that have been under discussion. > again, I'm convinced you're building a strawman here, nobody claimed its like this now, but its definately going in that direction. There is a ton of discussion around EU federalism, again surrounding macron. I used to be active in a political organisation that supported it, but im not that much of a fan personally nowadays because im disillusioned because of how undemocratic EU is up close. Well, plenty of people claim this. In any case, it is not going to that direction at all. How many federalist parties are there right now in the European Parliament? How many governments are talking about giving up their national sovereignty? And even if some of them wanted, no EU institution has any way of forcing that on the member states. Macron is not a federalist at all. He wants more integration in some areas (notably military spending and procurement, true). But if you believe he wants to give up things like industrial strategy, foreign policy or the ability to intervene militarily without having to convince the whole European Council, then you haven't been paying attention that much. Federalism is nothing new, it predates all the European Communities. It fell out of favour significantly after the 1980s, though. It is not a significant force nowadays and if anything, the EU as a single country is all but impossible now after the last rounds of enlargement. > Those reasons are both related to instances of personal corruption I have seen but also to how I don't agree with the dual parlimentary setup, where elected positions hold much less importance in the lower house, and can't propose legislation. The upper house is entirely unelected and can propose legislation. Sure its members are appointed by in theory elected national governments but I don't think thats a good way to go about things, imo national elections style democracy is already a tenuous way to get the will of the people and each step away from elected positions is progressively worse. I see many people in european parliment patting themselves on the back and laughing about how silly they think american system of electors is while doing an imo even worse system. I am not going to claim that the EU is perfect; it very much is not. The parliament is more legitimate now than it used to be (direct election of the MEPs is an improvement according to your criteria), but it lacks power and the Commission has too much freedom to ram regulations through parliament. But it has enough flaws and there is no need to make it look worse than it is. All the points the parent mentioned (the single country, the army, the "it's only supposed to be about trade", etc) are populist talking points that are false and dishonest in the mouth of all politicians who ought to know better. People resorting to them uncritically without understanding how absurd they sound is quite annoying. > There are significant benefits to being a member no doubt, but that doesn't mean its a good system It'd have to be really, really bad to be worse than what we had before. At the end of the day, if a country is better in it than outside, then it is a good system. Probably not a perfect one, but then no system is.