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Europeans might see their own governments as representation, but I don't think they view the EU as representing them. I've met a lot of people who think those g

Europeans might see their own governments as representation, but I don't think they view the EU as representing them. I've met a lot of people who think those guys in Brussels don't give a damn about us here, wherever that "here" might be. The sentiment seems similar to what people in the USSR thought of Moscow. I think part of the problem is that the EU can't work in the same way the US federal government does or ever did. Culturally the countries are too dissimilar. There are many friction points that make a closer union very difficult to swing without trying to pull a fast one over the population (like they did with the vote over the EU constitution). One friction point is the "liking of regulations" you mention. Some European countries seem to like that but others don't. People absolutely laugh at the ridiculous German bureaucracy, how dated the way is that the French run things (cheques!!!) or how naive the Swedes are. And they usually do not want that in their own country.

pornel 3y ago
When European countries want to pass unpopular legislation, instead of proposing it domestically, they propose it as an EU law, and turn back and say "look what EU made us do!". EU-wide successes of course are reported as personal achievements of whoever is on TV. Pro-EU vs anti-EU is also often a rallying topic in establishment vs opposition political debates, which tends to produce exaggerated controversies, sort of like the topic of abortion in the US. So I think there will always be some voices saying EU wants to outlaw curved bananas. European countries are very different. I'm not sure if more than California vs Alabama. However, people remember that European countries used to have actual wars with each other throughout their history, up until not that long ago, so it's preferable to have disagreements worked out bureaucratically, even if that's a lot of bureaucracy.
- dhoe 3y ago
  I have a pet theory that this is actually the main mechanism by which the EU gains power over time; anytime a grown up decision needs to be made, it's upsourced to the EU level, so that local politicians can focus on the stuff that makes everybody happy (which by the nature of things tends to be inconsequential).
- zosima 3y ago
  Unpopular legislation is often unpopular because it goes against people's best interests. So you are saying that one of EUs main purposes is to allow politicians to circumvent the democratic process and so act against people's best interest.
  - pornel 3y ago
    EU is still a democratic institution, with representatives democratically elected by citizens of EU countries. It's a different, bigger forum. This doesn't subvert the process. It may bring additional scrutiny and require international consensus. This is usually a higher bar for ramming bad laws than in local parliaments that may have dodgy deals or loyalties between parties/president/courts. There are unpopular laws because they are bad ideas (like all the "think of the children" surveillance). There are also laws that are good for society long term, but unpopular due to short-term inconvenience (e.g. pollution limits raising prices, or anti-smoking laws vs smokers' freedoms).
    - Aerroon 3y ago
      Can you really call it a democratic institution when voter turnout is 20% for some countries? When the EU had some countries do a referendum and the result was something they didn't like, then they just had the people do another referendum. Oh, and laws are created by people that are appointed, not elected.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> Culturally the countries are too dissimilar The chief problem is different languages - you can't have a debate for an EU level party easilly televised, etc. The cultural differences are not any worse, than chasms splitting the US, like go ask someone in Alabama and in New York aboit trans people or whatever. Like sure the food in Romania and france is differrent but its not a relevant issue at election time
- Aerroon 3y ago
  >The cultural differences are not any worse, than chasms splitting the US, like go ask someone in Alabama and in New York aboit trans people or whatever. The Spanish will occasionally celebrate communism. They even have communist party members in the EU. Meanwhile communist symbols in a country like Lithuania are literally illegal. And this isn't some government holdover. Things like education, childcare and even a general outlook on life is very different between EU countries.

pornel 3y ago

When European countries want to pass unpopular legislation, instead of proposing it domestically, they propose it as an EU law, and turn back and say "look what EU made us do!". EU-wide successes of course are reported as personal achievements of whoever is on TV. Pro-EU vs anti-EU is also often a rallying topic in establishment vs opposition political debates, which tends to produce exaggerated controversies, sort of like the topic of abortion in the US. So I think there will always be some voices saying EU wants to outlaw curved bananas. European countries are very different. I'm not sure if more than California vs Alabama. However, people remember that European countries used to have actual wars with each other throughout their history, up until not that long ago, so it's preferable to have disagreements worked out bureaucratically, even if that's a lot of bureaucracy.

dhoe 3y ago
I have a pet theory that this is actually the main mechanism by which the EU gains power over time; anytime a grown up decision needs to be made, it's upsourced to the EU level, so that local politicians can focus on the stuff that makes everybody happy (which by the nature of things tends to be inconsequential).
zosima 3y ago
Unpopular legislation is often unpopular because it goes against people's best interests. So you are saying that one of EUs main purposes is to allow politicians to circumvent the democratic process and so act against people's best interest.
- pornel 3y ago
  EU is still a democratic institution, with representatives democratically elected by citizens of EU countries. It's a different, bigger forum. This doesn't subvert the process. It may bring additional scrutiny and require international consensus. This is usually a higher bar for ramming bad laws than in local parliaments that may have dodgy deals or loyalties between parties/president/courts. There are unpopular laws because they are bad ideas (like all the "think of the children" surveillance). There are also laws that are good for society long term, but unpopular due to short-term inconvenience (e.g. pollution limits raising prices, or anti-smoking laws vs smokers' freedoms).
  - Aerroon 3y ago
    Can you really call it a democratic institution when voter turnout is 20% for some countries? When the EU had some countries do a referendum and the result was something they didn't like, then they just had the people do another referendum. Oh, and laws are created by people that are appointed, not elected.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> Culturally the countries are too dissimilar The chief problem is different languages - you can't have a debate for an EU level party easilly televised, etc. The cultural differences are not any worse, than chasms splitting the US, like go ask someone in Alabama and in New York aboit trans people or whatever. Like sure the food in Romania and france is differrent but its not a relevant issue at election time

Aerroon 3y ago
>The cultural differences are not any worse, than chasms splitting the US, like go ask someone in Alabama and in New York aboit trans people or whatever. The Spanish will occasionally celebrate communism. They even have communist party members in the EU. Meanwhile communist symbols in a country like Lithuania are literally illegal. And this isn't some government holdover. Things like education, childcare and even a general outlook on life is very different between EU countries.