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This is so self-centered it is borderline ignorance. First, people on H1B already have to prove they are being paid above the average market. They can't hire a

This is so self-centered it is borderline ignorance. First, people on H1B already have to prove they are being paid above the average market. They can't hire a senior engineer for 50k a year for example. Second, not all industry has high profit margins like software. Places like biotech or semiconductor can't afford 250K for a single worker, no matter how senior they are except in special circumstances. And these fields are just as critical and important as coding. In fact, one may argue that healthcare and chipmaking capacity are more critical to the country than someone writing the next iteration of Microsoft Word. Third, if H1B is given based purely on salary, then company won't bother with H1B anymore. Imagine what happen if suddenly half the company on market no longer care about having a H1B program. Some politician will start trying to abolish it all together. Xenophobia and "they took our high paying jobs" and "those snobs foreigners get paid how much while American get paid how much?" are easy to sell. Just a terrible hot take. Try to think broader than just your situation.

photonbeam 3y ago
No its not, its a valid way of looking at the situation.
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
>people on H1B already have to prove they are being paid above the average market. They can't hire a senior engineer for 50k a year for example. Companies that hire H1B's often 'downrank' employees to roles they are overqualified for in order to reduce salary requirements. >Second, not all industry has high profit margins like software. Places like biotech or semiconductor can't afford 250K for a single worker, If the industry cannot afford it, perhaps they shouldn't hire H1bs? How else, other than compensation, would you decide who provides the most economic value? >Third, if H1B is given based purely on salary, then company won't bother with H1B anymore. Imagine what happen if suddenly half the company on market no longer care about having a H1B program. A country's laws exist for the benefit of it's CITIZENS. I personally believe that the US H1B program is exploitative and should be ended, and our legal immigration system should be reformed. You need a worker? They get a green card, and can go to any company they please. That worker should also be automatically eligible for citizenship after ~ 5 years of paying taxes and staying out of trouble.
- adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
  how do you suggest a person from India get a green card? there's a 50 year waiting list
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    Nope, I'm saying that we should reform our immigration system so that isn't the case. You really need a foreign employee? Alright, but you have to pay a premium, and that employee is free to go anywhere else they like if they don't feel they're treated well. That would end the semi indentured servitude I've seen from h1b coworkers who were desperate to keep their job least they be deported.
    - bradlys 3y ago
      It would improve conditions for Americans too. As it is - because most employees in SFBA are H1B - we all have to suffer shit working conditions with toxic management.
  - throwawa14223 3y ago
    So they don’t get in that’s fine too.
- tomohelix 3y ago
  I have read about title inflation but I do not know about title deflation. I afraid you need to provide proof for your claim before I take it seriously. I do hear entry positions requiring a few years of experience, but often that is just a way to promote an internal hire, like a contractor or an intern. How do you define economic value? By money only is a bad metric. Take pharma for example. The top 5 biggest pharma companies combined can't equal the same market cap or liquidity of 1 Apple (1.9T vs 2.5T). Now think about the societal impact. If you have to live in a place without drugs (those 5 pharma produce almost all the lifesaving drugs in the US) and a place without Apple products, where would you go? I can go into the reasons why Apple is 2.5T and the pharmas is fraction of that, but that would be too long. It is simply the economy of scale, cost of manufacturing, and legal regulations. The cost of doing business results in lower salary for the end workers but it doesn't mean the industry is "lower value".
legolas2412 3y ago
> First, people on H1B already have to prove they are being paid above the average market. Why should a software dev in SF being paid 150k$ be considered as good a candidate compared to one being paid 400k$? Why do you call it a "high-skilled" visa, and then argue for the bar to be "average" > Second, not all industry has high profit margins like software If they cannot pay enough, maybe they should not be hiring international workers citing a shortage. > Third, if H1B is given based purely on salary, then company won't bother with H1B anymore. So, is there no shortage of tech workers? Certainly international MIT PhDs will still be in demand?
- tomohelix 3y ago
  Because it is not high skilled? That is EB visa? The fact that it is paid at least the average wage for the occupation means you need more proof to claim there is wage repression? Please read what I wrote. They are required by law to pay above average salary for the occupation they are hiring. Not all industry has the profitability of big tech. Unless you are arguing a software dev job is somehow more skilled than a semiconductor engineer or a biopharma scientist, you have no argument here. And which visa they are going to be hired for? EB visa? Which take 2-3 years to vet? Which company will wait a year to fill a position instead of just scaling down? If you take down the H1B, there will be shortages and reduced productivity. If you need proof, just check how many of your coworkers are on H1B.
  - legolas2412 3y ago
    EB are immigraiton visas, that is green card visas. Unless you imagine that people just file EB visas to come work in the USA. Clearly you have zero idea of what work visas people get. Also, just do a google search, "high-skilled professional visas" without doubt refer to H1B > Unless you are arguing a software dev job is somehow more skilled than a semiconductor engineer or a biopharma scientist, you have no argument here. Maybe they should be paid better. Also, I argue that being a nanny or a janitor requires skill too, much more in fact than writing a dumb CRUD app. If software industry having high margins is the problem, maybe that is a separate problem solved with anti trust actions. > And which visa they are going to be hired for? EB visa? Which take 2-3 years to vet? Which company will wait a year to fill a position instead of just scaling down? If you take down the H1B, there will be shortages and reduced productivity. If you need proof, just check how many of your coworkers are on H1B. As someone on H1B seeing rampant "fraud" and a mere 14% approval rate, seeing friends with PhDs not getting lotteries while people with fake job offers by "consultancies" get it, I am not asking to end the H1B. I am asking it to be actually for "high skilled" labor.
adrr 3y ago
Lets look at the top semiconductor and biotech companies. * NVidia: $10B in net income 2022. Gross margins 70%. CEO comp $22m * J&J: $18B in net income 2022. Gross margins 68%. CEO comp $13m * Pfizer: $31B in net income 2022. Gross margins 75% CEO comp $30m * Qualcom: $13b in net income 2022. Gross margins 55%. CEO comp $5m * TI: $9b in net income 2022. Gross margins 65%. CEO comp $22m Also H1Bs are being paid above market rates. That isn't true. The data is searchable. Look at Tata for a software developer in Austin. I see 20+ developers making less the $80k(Average according to glassdoor) with most making in the $60k range which i would argue is below entry level. https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=tata+consultancy+services+limited&job=developer&city=austin&year=2022 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=tata+consultancy+services+... Edit(for comparison): * Apple: Gross Margins 44% * MSFT: Gross Margins: 70% * Googl: Gross Margins 57%
- tomohelix 3y ago
  Your example is a consultancy. Not really a good example. Most likely they are already skirting the law in the first place. Gross margin is a bad metrics. It doesn't cover overhead costs or R&D. Take for example J&J whose net profit margin is 13% while Apple is 24%. Or abbvie is also 13% vs Msft 34%. Also why did you not put in the net income for those big 3 tech companies in the bottom?
  - wing-_-nuts 3y ago
    It's a solid example considering those consultancies employ a large number of h1b visas
rawgabbit 3y ago
There are provisions in place to make sure employers are paying their workers the prevailing wage and not replacing American workers. However, a giant loophole makes companies paying $60,000 and above per employee – or hiring employees with master's degrees – exempt from this rule. An author of the 1990 Act that created the H-1B program, Bruce Morrison, told The Atlantic it was "a dastardly deed," and he blamed lobbyists for the caveat. The caveat is greatly relevant since more than half the approved petitions in 2014 had master's degrees or higher making it perfectly legal for them to be paid less than an American worker they were replacing. https://www.investopedia.com/news/h1b-visa-issue-explained-msft-goog/ https://www.investopedia.com/news/h1b-visa-issue-explained-m...
spullara 3y ago
Then they don't get H1-B workers. If they were that critical and in low supply in the US they could pay more. The lottery that favors consulting companies has made the H1-B program ridiculous hard for great folks and it isn't bringing in the quality talent that we should be inviting to the country.

photonbeam 3y ago

No its not, its a valid way of looking at the situation.

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

>people on H1B already have to prove they are being paid above the average market. They can't hire a senior engineer for 50k a year for example. Companies that hire H1B's often 'downrank' employees to roles they are overqualified for in order to reduce salary requirements. >Second, not all industry has high profit margins like software. Places like biotech or semiconductor can't afford 250K for a single worker, If the industry cannot afford it, perhaps they shouldn't hire H1bs? How else, other than compensation, would you decide who provides the most economic value? >Third, if H1B is given based purely on salary, then company won't bother with H1B anymore. Imagine what happen if suddenly half the company on market no longer care about having a H1B program. A country's laws exist for the benefit of it's CITIZENS. I personally believe that the US H1B program is exploitative and should be ended, and our legal immigration system should be reformed. You need a worker? They get a green card, and can go to any company they please. That worker should also be automatically eligible for citizenship after ~ 5 years of paying taxes and staying out of trouble.

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
how do you suggest a person from India get a green card? there's a 50 year waiting list
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  Nope, I'm saying that we should reform our immigration system so that isn't the case. You really need a foreign employee? Alright, but you have to pay a premium, and that employee is free to go anywhere else they like if they don't feel they're treated well. That would end the semi indentured servitude I've seen from h1b coworkers who were desperate to keep their job least they be deported.
  - bradlys 3y ago
    It would improve conditions for Americans too. As it is - because most employees in SFBA are H1B - we all have to suffer shit working conditions with toxic management.
- throwawa14223 3y ago
  So they don’t get in that’s fine too.
tomohelix 3y ago
I have read about title inflation but I do not know about title deflation. I afraid you need to provide proof for your claim before I take it seriously. I do hear entry positions requiring a few years of experience, but often that is just a way to promote an internal hire, like a contractor or an intern. How do you define economic value? By money only is a bad metric. Take pharma for example. The top 5 biggest pharma companies combined can't equal the same market cap or liquidity of 1 Apple (1.9T vs 2.5T). Now think about the societal impact. If you have to live in a place without drugs (those 5 pharma produce almost all the lifesaving drugs in the US) and a place without Apple products, where would you go? I can go into the reasons why Apple is 2.5T and the pharmas is fraction of that, but that would be too long. It is simply the economy of scale, cost of manufacturing, and legal regulations. The cost of doing business results in lower salary for the end workers but it doesn't mean the industry is "lower value".

legolas2412 3y ago

> First, people on H1B already have to prove they are being paid above the average market. Why should a software dev in SF being paid 150k$ be considered as good a candidate compared to one being paid 400k$? Why do you call it a "high-skilled" visa, and then argue for the bar to be "average" > Second, not all industry has high profit margins like software If they cannot pay enough, maybe they should not be hiring international workers citing a shortage. > Third, if H1B is given based purely on salary, then company won't bother with H1B anymore. So, is there no shortage of tech workers? Certainly international MIT PhDs will still be in demand?

tomohelix 3y ago
Because it is not high skilled? That is EB visa? The fact that it is paid at least the average wage for the occupation means you need more proof to claim there is wage repression? Please read what I wrote. They are required by law to pay above average salary for the occupation they are hiring. Not all industry has the profitability of big tech. Unless you are arguing a software dev job is somehow more skilled than a semiconductor engineer or a biopharma scientist, you have no argument here. And which visa they are going to be hired for? EB visa? Which take 2-3 years to vet? Which company will wait a year to fill a position instead of just scaling down? If you take down the H1B, there will be shortages and reduced productivity. If you need proof, just check how many of your coworkers are on H1B.
- legolas2412 3y ago
  EB are immigraiton visas, that is green card visas. Unless you imagine that people just file EB visas to come work in the USA. Clearly you have zero idea of what work visas people get. Also, just do a google search, "high-skilled professional visas" without doubt refer to H1B > Unless you are arguing a software dev job is somehow more skilled than a semiconductor engineer or a biopharma scientist, you have no argument here. Maybe they should be paid better. Also, I argue that being a nanny or a janitor requires skill too, much more in fact than writing a dumb CRUD app. If software industry having high margins is the problem, maybe that is a separate problem solved with anti trust actions. > And which visa they are going to be hired for? EB visa? Which take 2-3 years to vet? Which company will wait a year to fill a position instead of just scaling down? If you take down the H1B, there will be shortages and reduced productivity. If you need proof, just check how many of your coworkers are on H1B. As someone on H1B seeing rampant "fraud" and a mere 14% approval rate, seeing friends with PhDs not getting lotteries while people with fake job offers by "consultancies" get it, I am not asking to end the H1B. I am asking it to be actually for "high skilled" labor.

adrr 3y ago

Lets look at the top semiconductor and biotech companies. * NVidia: $10B in net income 2022. Gross margins 70%. CEO comp $22m * J&J: $18B in net income 2022. Gross margins 68%. CEO comp $13m * Pfizer: $31B in net income 2022. Gross margins 75% CEO comp $30m * Qualcom: $13b in net income 2022. Gross margins 55%. CEO comp $5m * TI: $9b in net income 2022. Gross margins 65%. CEO comp $22m Also H1Bs are being paid above market rates. That isn't true. The data is searchable. Look at Tata for a software developer in Austin. I see 20+ developers making less the $80k(Average according to glassdoor) with most making in the $60k range which i would argue is below entry level. https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=tata+consultancy+services+limited&job=developer&city=austin&year=2022 https://h1bdata.info/index.php?em=tata+consultancy+services+... Edit(for comparison): * Apple: Gross Margins 44% * MSFT: Gross Margins: 70% * Googl: Gross Margins 57%

tomohelix 3y ago
Your example is a consultancy. Not really a good example. Most likely they are already skirting the law in the first place. Gross margin is a bad metrics. It doesn't cover overhead costs or R&D. Take for example J&J whose net profit margin is 13% while Apple is 24%. Or abbvie is also 13% vs Msft 34%. Also why did you not put in the net income for those big 3 tech companies in the bottom?
- wing-_-nuts 3y ago
  It's a solid example considering those consultancies employ a large number of h1b visas

rawgabbit 3y ago

There are provisions in place to make sure employers are paying their workers the prevailing wage and not replacing American workers. However, a giant loophole makes companies paying $60,000 and above per employee – or hiring employees with master's degrees – exempt from this rule. An author of the 1990 Act that created the H-1B program, Bruce Morrison, told The Atlantic it was "a dastardly deed," and he blamed lobbyists for the caveat. The caveat is greatly relevant since more than half the approved petitions in 2014 had master's degrees or higher making it perfectly legal for them to be paid less than an American worker they were replacing. https://www.investopedia.com/news/h1b-visa-issue-explained-msft-goog/ https://www.investopedia.com/news/h1b-visa-issue-explained-m...

spullara 3y ago

Then they don't get H1-B workers. If they were that critical and in low supply in the US they could pay more. The lottery that favors consulting companies has made the H1-B program ridiculous hard for great folks and it isn't bringing in the quality talent that we should be inviting to the country.