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> Those people weren't forced to leave the cities, they were given opportunity to do so and chose to do it. Let's go back to xyst's comment at https://news.yco

> Those people weren't forced to leave the cities, they were given opportunity to do so and chose to do it. Let's go back to xyst's comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37951319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37951319 . "It’s a choice shoved down our throats by decades of destroying urban cores, bulldozing poor communities/neighborhoods in favor of massive highway projects, and removing bustling streets of human activity with useless parking lots." xyst never said there wasn't a choice. Instead, the thumb was pressed down on scale, hard, to encourage people to make a specific choice. You said that was a-historical. It was not. > People continue to choose to live there. What choice do they have? The US zoning system for decades has mandated either high-rises or single-family car-dependent suburbia. If someone wants to live in a mixed-use area with walking distance from school, restaurant, parks, and restaurants, with mass-transit options ... where do you suggest they live? > They weren't forced. Yes, they were. Who do you think enforces zoning requirements? Answer: the police force. Zoning restrictions are the reason why most places are only single-family homes. The duplexes and short-rises of the immediate post-war suburb I grew up in are no longer allowed. > Do you think the vast majority of people living in the suburbs just like wake up every day thinking Now you're just being silly - of course not! So let's back back to the actual issue. You said xyst's comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37951319 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37951319 was a-historical, but have yet to show why it's historically inaccurate. Do you think the vast majority of people have a choice of living somewhere which isn't car dependent? If they don't have the choice, is there really a choice? Can you really say people "prefer" a car if they have no choice without a car?

vel0city 3y ago
> Instead, the thumb was pressed down on scale The thumb of faceless non-human things? No. The thumb of the people elected, time and time again, for several decades. Doing the policies the people wanted. > You said that was a-historical. I have not used that term once in this thread. I do largely agree that arguing practically nobody chose suburbs is a-historical though. Suburbs exist and continue to exist because that's what people choose. > Who do you think enforces zoning requirements? Answer: the police force. So what, the the police just come up with zoning rules on their own? They do have a choice, they vote for their local city councils. Those are the people which make the zoning laws. Those are the people that made the suburbs the way they are. Those are the people which keep growing the suburbs as they are. > If someone wants to live in a mixed-use area with walking distance from school, restaurant, parks, and restaurants, with mass-transit options ... where do you suggest they live? Richardson, TX? Plano, TX? I used to live with a friend in Plano, it was like a block from an elementary school, just a few blocks away from the middle school and high school. It was walking distance to over a dozen restaurants. Its quite a nice place to live. > Do you think the vast majority of people have a choice of living somewhere which isn't car dependent? I do agree there are a lot of people which for a variety of factors cannot make that choice. But they have the opportunity to vote for city council members who will change that. But they largely don't vote for those people. You can tell that because they often don't seem to win elections. I do agree there's probably a lot of people who would prefer to live in denser urban areas. I wouldn't argue they're the majority of the people who live in suburbs though. Because, if they were, more suburban towns would have elected people changing those zoning laws to allow it. If they're doing stuff the majority of people living there don't want, why do they get re-elected? > of course not! Of course not, because...get this...they enjoy living in the suburbs!
- eesmith 3y ago
  > The thumb of the people elected, time and time again, for several decades. I feel like you haven't bothered to read or understand what I've written. There are innumerable books on the topic, which go into depth about exactly who the people were, and the reasons they wanted to build highways, including the explicit racism. If the people want racism, and vote in racists to enforce racism - which these highways did - then I am not going to pretend that what they wanted is something that I want, nor something that should be continued to be supported. > I have not used that term once in this thread. I apologize. I didn't see that you took up the exchange after baggy_trough made that comment. Your two viewpoints were very similar. > So what, the the police just come up with zoning rules on their own? No. You asked what forces people to make that choice. Zoning laws, enforced by the police, prevent people from having the full range of choice. People choose from the options that exist. > Richardson, TX? Plano, TX? I looked around Richardson using Google Street View. It does not look like a place where it is easy to live comfortably without a car. It looks like standard R1 residential with most businesses on stroads meant primarily for cars. Let's take 414 Salem Dr, which is for-sale, according to Zillo, and near the geographic center of the city. There is an elementary school in walking distance, and a grocery store a mile away on W. Campbell. If after dinner you realize you need milk for the next morning, only the most dedicated of walkers will do the 40 minutes round-trip walk to pick them up vs. driving. How do you visit the library? My local library has events for parents with newborns, and for young children. The nearest library to that address is the Richardson Public Library. It estimates 52 minutes walk time, or 47 minutes by bus (of which 35 minutes are walking). How many parents are going to do that walk instead of drive? If on Saturday your 12-year-old wants to meet up with friends at the library "to work on a school project" (but really just to hang out), do you let the kid walk nearly an hour to the Richardson Public Library, along Campbell road and under I-75? There is no bus service for Saturdays. This is a car-dependent neighborhood. The fact that you think otherwise mostly shows you don't know what's missing. > who would prefer to live in denser urban areas Again, you are missing the point. There are people who want to live in denser suburban areas. I pointed you to a video comparing two suburban areas, one in the US and one in Germany. The fact that you think the only alternatives are single-family suburbs or dense urban is because that's the only two choices in most of the US. >> of course not! No. I mean that when I bought a house in a suburb even I wasn't all "wake up every day thinking "man I really hate living here, welp, guess I'll do nothing about it!"". Since I wasn't that way, why should I think others are? Your strawman position seems put out just to be silly, not meaningful. > they enjoy living in the suburbs! And how much should they be subsidized for their expensive choice which sucks tax dollars from poorer neighborhoods?

vel0city 3y ago

> Instead, the thumb was pressed down on scale The thumb of faceless non-human things? No. The thumb of the people elected, time and time again, for several decades. Doing the policies the people wanted. > You said that was a-historical. I have not used that term once in this thread. I do largely agree that arguing practically nobody chose suburbs is a-historical though. Suburbs exist and continue to exist because that's what people choose. > Who do you think enforces zoning requirements? Answer: the police force. So what, the the police just come up with zoning rules on their own? They do have a choice, they vote for their local city councils. Those are the people which make the zoning laws. Those are the people that made the suburbs the way they are. Those are the people which keep growing the suburbs as they are. > If someone wants to live in a mixed-use area with walking distance from school, restaurant, parks, and restaurants, with mass-transit options ... where do you suggest they live? Richardson, TX? Plano, TX? I used to live with a friend in Plano, it was like a block from an elementary school, just a few blocks away from the middle school and high school. It was walking distance to over a dozen restaurants. Its quite a nice place to live. > Do you think the vast majority of people have a choice of living somewhere which isn't car dependent? I do agree there are a lot of people which for a variety of factors cannot make that choice. But they have the opportunity to vote for city council members who will change that. But they largely don't vote for those people. You can tell that because they often don't seem to win elections. I do agree there's probably a lot of people who would prefer to live in denser urban areas. I wouldn't argue they're the majority of the people who live in suburbs though. Because, if they were, more suburban towns would have elected people changing those zoning laws to allow it. If they're doing stuff the majority of people living there don't want, why do they get re-elected? > of course not! Of course not, because...get this...they enjoy living in the suburbs!

eesmith 3y ago
> The thumb of the people elected, time and time again, for several decades. I feel like you haven't bothered to read or understand what I've written. There are innumerable books on the topic, which go into depth about exactly who the people were, and the reasons they wanted to build highways, including the explicit racism. If the people want racism, and vote in racists to enforce racism - which these highways did - then I am not going to pretend that what they wanted is something that I want, nor something that should be continued to be supported. > I have not used that term once in this thread. I apologize. I didn't see that you took up the exchange after baggy_trough made that comment. Your two viewpoints were very similar. > So what, the the police just come up with zoning rules on their own? No. You asked what forces people to make that choice. Zoning laws, enforced by the police, prevent people from having the full range of choice. People choose from the options that exist. > Richardson, TX? Plano, TX? I looked around Richardson using Google Street View. It does not look like a place where it is easy to live comfortably without a car. It looks like standard R1 residential with most businesses on stroads meant primarily for cars. Let's take 414 Salem Dr, which is for-sale, according to Zillo, and near the geographic center of the city. There is an elementary school in walking distance, and a grocery store a mile away on W. Campbell. If after dinner you realize you need milk for the next morning, only the most dedicated of walkers will do the 40 minutes round-trip walk to pick them up vs. driving. How do you visit the library? My local library has events for parents with newborns, and for young children. The nearest library to that address is the Richardson Public Library. It estimates 52 minutes walk time, or 47 minutes by bus (of which 35 minutes are walking). How many parents are going to do that walk instead of drive? If on Saturday your 12-year-old wants to meet up with friends at the library "to work on a school project" (but really just to hang out), do you let the kid walk nearly an hour to the Richardson Public Library, along Campbell road and under I-75? There is no bus service for Saturdays. This is a car-dependent neighborhood. The fact that you think otherwise mostly shows you don't know what's missing. > who would prefer to live in denser urban areas Again, you are missing the point. There are people who want to live in denser suburban areas. I pointed you to a video comparing two suburban areas, one in the US and one in Germany. The fact that you think the only alternatives are single-family suburbs or dense urban is because that's the only two choices in most of the US. >> of course not! No. I mean that when I bought a house in a suburb even I wasn't all "wake up every day thinking "man I really hate living here, welp, guess I'll do nothing about it!"". Since I wasn't that way, why should I think others are? Your strawman position seems put out just to be silly, not meaningful. > they enjoy living in the suburbs! And how much should they be subsidized for their expensive choice which sucks tax dollars from poorer neighborhoods?