4 ms·

> My goal was to learn more and go deeper on subjects, but I was stunned by how often the linked citation didn't support the claim in the Wikipedia article. The

by gwern 3y ago

> My goal was to learn more and go deeper on subjects, but I was stunned by how often the linked citation didn't support the claim in the Wikipedia article. There were many times where the linked citation said the opposite of the Wikipedia article. WP is, unfortunately, not obviously any worse than researchers in general are: https://gwern.net/leprechaun#miscitation https://gwern.net/leprechaun#miscitation > Trying to correct these articles is some times like going to war with editors who refuse to admit they were wrong. Yep. Because now you are doing 'OR' by interpreting the paper, especially when the abstract is just lying/spin.

BestGuess 3y ago
Don't even have to be about science, it can just be random little myths that spring up people try to correct. I happen to know stuff about firearms, got quite a few, from one of those places people can have quite a few. One day I'm scrollin down reading history on the M16 trying to remember something and I find the dumbest goddamn thing I ever heard, this claim the M16 got issued without cleaning kits and Colt claimed it was "entirely self-cleaning". I don't know if ya ever used firearms but that would never happen, and is the absolute dumbest claim I ever saw in my life. "reduced fouling" don't mean "entirely self-cleaning". Now I don't really know how to use wikipedia but I thought it was one of those fake edits people might do as a joke. Went checking edit history and stuff to find out and turns out someone else tried to point out the myth too and some jackass with authority is jealously guarding that myth to keep it on the page forever. Went and checked the government documents myself, among other things there is no Colt material making that claim in that context. Government also ordered cleaning kits, Colt supplied cleaning kits, so it's also contradicted by fact there too. Simple thing is there just weren't enough to go around, supply shortages, and someone at some point created the myth by misunderstanding that a design to "reduce fouling" thereby "reduce cleaning" don't in any way no hell no how imply "self-cleaning" in that way. Yet the claim remains on wikipedia, without clarification, because I guess some idiots repeating the myth in a book makes the myth okay. I went and checked that book, too. No source of the myth in the cited book. It's completely fuckin made up and anyone with half a brain and a day using a firearm would know that, but there it is. All because someone, for some reason only God knows, personally wants it to be there and has the authority to keep it there.
- freedomben 3y ago
  The image of wikipedia editors jealously guarding pages (which makes me think of a dragon hoarding treasure) is entirely accurate and widespread. I've seen it happen on all kinds of pages from pages about some religious event/person to pages about highly technical subjects. I honestly don't know what the solution is because there are definitely people who continually try to edit history by changing wikipedia pages, but the scales right now are way tilted toward preserving bad info, which includes fixing errors and also adding expansions.
  - BestGuess 3y ago
    Well maybe I'm a bumpkin but seems to be the fix is the truth, and if the truth ain't clear there's no reason you can't have explanations or explain claims repeated elsewhere aren't evident in something like source materials. It isn't like you got a floppy disk and have to cram an encyclopedia on it. Simple enough fix to my mind. If them "dragons", and I like that image there I think it fits, pull bullshit like that you just remove them. Which you can now easily do because whether or not Colt claimed something is a matter of truth that can be checked. In this case obviously not. Simplifies everything and gets people talking about the truth and how to best represent what's true, even if it's disputed, instead of having what's very clearly false with no hope of even clarifying "this appears to be a myth".
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  I tracked down the book wikipedia cites for that self-cleaning claim (it's on Library Genesis). Wikipedia presently says: > However, the rifle was initially delivered without adequate cleaning kits[43] or instructions because advertising from Colt asserted that the M16's materials made the weapon require little maintenance, and was capable of self-cleaning.[67] The book, The M16 by Gordon L. Rottman, says on page 20: > Most Marine units began receiving the XM16E1 in April 1967 and immediately experienced problems arising from several factors. Most units received little if any cleaning gear beyond some cleaning rods and bore brushes. Some units had never heard of chamber brushes. Colt is said to have hyped the weapon as futuristic, requiring little maintenance owing to new materials. This was interpreted to mean the black rifle was “self-cleaning.” So Colt supposedly saying the rifle requiring "little maintenance" was then subsequently interpreted (by the Marines I think) to mean the rifle was "self-cleaning". The book doesn't say Colt made the "self-cleaning" claim, but whoever wrote that part on wikipedia is attributing the claim to Colt. Hard to say if even the book's claim is right.. "Colt is said to have..." said by who? The book doesn't actually cite any Colt marketing material or anything like that.

by gwern 3y ago

BestGuess 3y ago

Don't even have to be about science, it can just be random little myths that spring up people try to correct. I happen to know stuff about firearms, got quite a few, from one of those places people can have quite a few. One day I'm scrollin down reading history on the M16 trying to remember something and I find the dumbest goddamn thing I ever heard, this claim the M16 got issued without cleaning kits and Colt claimed it was "entirely self-cleaning". I don't know if ya ever used firearms but that would never happen, and is the absolute dumbest claim I ever saw in my life. "reduced fouling" don't mean "entirely self-cleaning". Now I don't really know how to use wikipedia but I thought it was one of those fake edits people might do as a joke. Went checking edit history and stuff to find out and turns out someone else tried to point out the myth too and some jackass with authority is jealously guarding that myth to keep it on the page forever. Went and checked the government documents myself, among other things there is no Colt material making that claim in that context. Government also ordered cleaning kits, Colt supplied cleaning kits, so it's also contradicted by fact there too. Simple thing is there just weren't enough to go around, supply shortages, and someone at some point created the myth by misunderstanding that a design to "reduce fouling" thereby "reduce cleaning" don't in any way no hell no how imply "self-cleaning" in that way. Yet the claim remains on wikipedia, without clarification, because I guess some idiots repeating the myth in a book makes the myth okay. I went and checked that book, too. No source of the myth in the cited book. It's completely fuckin made up and anyone with half a brain and a day using a firearm would know that, but there it is. All because someone, for some reason only God knows, personally wants it to be there and has the authority to keep it there.

freedomben 3y ago
The image of wikipedia editors jealously guarding pages (which makes me think of a dragon hoarding treasure) is entirely accurate and widespread. I've seen it happen on all kinds of pages from pages about some religious event/person to pages about highly technical subjects. I honestly don't know what the solution is because there are definitely people who continually try to edit history by changing wikipedia pages, but the scales right now are way tilted toward preserving bad info, which includes fixing errors and also adding expansions.
- BestGuess 3y ago
  Well maybe I'm a bumpkin but seems to be the fix is the truth, and if the truth ain't clear there's no reason you can't have explanations or explain claims repeated elsewhere aren't evident in something like source materials. It isn't like you got a floppy disk and have to cram an encyclopedia on it. Simple enough fix to my mind. If them "dragons", and I like that image there I think it fits, pull bullshit like that you just remove them. Which you can now easily do because whether or not Colt claimed something is a matter of truth that can be checked. In this case obviously not. Simplifies everything and gets people talking about the truth and how to best represent what's true, even if it's disputed, instead of having what's very clearly false with no hope of even clarifying "this appears to be a myth".
mcpackieh 3y ago
I tracked down the book wikipedia cites for that self-cleaning claim (it's on Library Genesis). Wikipedia presently says: > However, the rifle was initially delivered without adequate cleaning kits[43] or instructions because advertising from Colt asserted that the M16's materials made the weapon require little maintenance, and was capable of self-cleaning.[67] The book, The M16 by Gordon L. Rottman, says on page 20: > Most Marine units began receiving the XM16E1 in April 1967 and immediately experienced problems arising from several factors. Most units received little if any cleaning gear beyond some cleaning rods and bore brushes. Some units had never heard of chamber brushes. Colt is said to have hyped the weapon as futuristic, requiring little maintenance owing to new materials. This was interpreted to mean the black rifle was “self-cleaning.” So Colt supposedly saying the rifle requiring "little maintenance" was then subsequently interpreted (by the Marines I think) to mean the rifle was "self-cleaning". The book doesn't say Colt made the "self-cleaning" claim, but whoever wrote that part on wikipedia is attributing the claim to Colt. Hard to say if even the book's claim is right.. "Colt is said to have..." said by who? The book doesn't actually cite any Colt marketing material or anything like that.