3 ms·

> FWIW: someone with ill/violent intent couldn't care less about a random status violation that would pale in comparative severity to whatever other crime they

> FWIW: someone with ill/violent intent couldn't care less about a random status violation that would pale in comparative severity to whatever other crime they wanted to commit. Violence in general and domestic violence especially are not always premeditated. What starts as an attempt by the abuser to hash things out can devolve into violence. A protective order can stop abusers from making the attempt in the first place, and when there is an attempt they can help the victim get more immediate help from law enforcement.

salamanderss 3y ago
And of course nothing calms an abuser down like being set loose without a proper conviction, now with the ire of being dispossessed perhaps rightly of children and home. Convict and jail them, with the full rights and penalties that go with that. Not this halfass paper shield against an otherwise free person.
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  > And of course nothing calms an abuser down like being set loose without a proper conviction, now with the ire of being dispossessed perhaps rightly of children and home. Absolutely, some murders do seem to be triggered by protection orders. Presumably those cases would also occur when they are charged with a crime with cooperation from the victim. Are we going to instead consider pretrial detention for all cases of accused DV? And wouldn't that have all of the same issues with a lower standard of evidence but infringe even more on their rights? Edit: I should clarify, when charges are filed we should consider pretrial detention. Unfortunately there are tons of reasons why DV victims often end up not wanting to press charges, or when someone is charged, not wanting to cooperate with prosecutors. Creating a situation where their only avenue for safety is pressing charges and cooperating with authorities creates its own set of issues and I feel they still deserve some level of safety even if they don't cooperate with criminal charges.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - salamanderss 3y ago
    About everywhere I've lived police will absolutely arrest and book upon probable cause of criminal DV and they're often required to by law or policy. Yes we should absolutely consider pretrial detention. In my state refer to ARS 13-3883 and note it pertains to criminal justice instead of civil, which are significantly different with different standards than an ex parte civil order. If someone is an abuser by all means take advantage of criminal justice system . Note: not legal advice
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > Are we going to consider pretrial detention for all cases of accused DV? And wouldn't that have all of the same issues with a lower standard of evidence but infringe even more on their rights? I think we should. The reason permanent orders are handed out like candy is because the judge wants to err on the side of caution. It's the same reason cops are more willing to use force when they have a taser than when they have a gun - there's no consequences for doing so. Make there be real consequences for wrongly issuing a protection order, and you'll have fewer wrongly issued protection orders.
15155 3y ago
Is this opinion, professional expertise?
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  Why not just address the point? Its a casual opinion informed by basic research on domestic violence. I didn't feel like I needed a citation for "sometimes violence is impulsive" but here we are I guess. Comparison of impulsive and premeditated perpetrators of intimate partner violence: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19039796/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19039796/ Premeditated versus "passionate": patterns of homicide related to intimate partner violence: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30100045/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30100045/

salamanderss 3y ago

And of course nothing calms an abuser down like being set loose without a proper conviction, now with the ire of being dispossessed perhaps rightly of children and home. Convict and jail them, with the full rights and penalties that go with that. Not this halfass paper shield against an otherwise free person.

enragedcacti 3y ago
> And of course nothing calms an abuser down like being set loose without a proper conviction, now with the ire of being dispossessed perhaps rightly of children and home. Absolutely, some murders do seem to be triggered by protection orders. Presumably those cases would also occur when they are charged with a crime with cooperation from the victim. Are we going to instead consider pretrial detention for all cases of accused DV? And wouldn't that have all of the same issues with a lower standard of evidence but infringe even more on their rights? Edit: I should clarify, when charges are filed we should consider pretrial detention. Unfortunately there are tons of reasons why DV victims often end up not wanting to press charges, or when someone is charged, not wanting to cooperate with prosecutors. Creating a situation where their only avenue for safety is pressing charges and cooperating with authorities creates its own set of issues and I feel they still deserve some level of safety even if they don't cooperate with criminal charges.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- salamanderss 3y ago
  About everywhere I've lived police will absolutely arrest and book upon probable cause of criminal DV and they're often required to by law or policy. Yes we should absolutely consider pretrial detention. In my state refer to ARS 13-3883 and note it pertains to criminal justice instead of civil, which are significantly different with different standards than an ex parte civil order. If someone is an abuser by all means take advantage of criminal justice system . Note: not legal advice
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > Are we going to consider pretrial detention for all cases of accused DV? And wouldn't that have all of the same issues with a lower standard of evidence but infringe even more on their rights? I think we should. The reason permanent orders are handed out like candy is because the judge wants to err on the side of caution. It's the same reason cops are more willing to use force when they have a taser than when they have a gun - there's no consequences for doing so. Make there be real consequences for wrongly issuing a protection order, and you'll have fewer wrongly issued protection orders.

15155 3y ago

Is this opinion, professional expertise?

enragedcacti 3y ago
Why not just address the point? Its a casual opinion informed by basic research on domestic violence. I didn't feel like I needed a citation for "sometimes violence is impulsive" but here we are I guess. Comparison of impulsive and premeditated perpetrators of intimate partner violence: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19039796/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19039796/ Premeditated versus "passionate": patterns of homicide related to intimate partner violence: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30100045/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30100045/