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> we need to find a way to penalize this kind of behavior harshly and quickly. There is only one solution: The population valuing repairable products. After t

> we need to find a way to penalize this kind of behavior harshly and quickly. There is only one solution: The population valuing repairable products. After that, problem solved. That will make them the more profitable one, penalizing production of non-repairable products through loss of profitability, and companies will jump at the chance to produce that which is repairable. But so long as we, as a population, don't value repairable products, companies are going to continue to produce what we actually value instead. After all, a company can only stave off bankruptcy by producing what people want. There is no other option. Even if you want to penalize through law, or similar means, democracy requires that the population first value repairable products to usher in such a law, and at that point the company's quest for profitability will have already solved the problem anyway.

Timshel 3y ago
Cool story the usual speech of making it the fault of the consumer ... I want a repairable phone with extended support for around 400e can you find me one ? Fairphone are not too bad but look at the price and they are probably doing the best they can. But you might have heard of economy of scale ? If right to repair becomes law then repairable product might stop being niche and so expensive. Edit: but no let's not pass any law and just continue to let society subsidize corporation pollution.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > I want a repairable phone with extended support for around 400e can you find me one ? Does 400e speak to you meaningfully valuing such an item? That's little more than a single meal at a high end restaurant, for a highly complex device that takes many thousands of man hours to create. You can't even buy many non-repairable smartphones for that much. This does not demonstrate you valuing a repairable device at all.
  - Timshel 3y ago
    You might need to interact with a more diverse group of people ... I don't know where you eat but in Paris a high end meal would start along the line of 100e. You can buy a repairable Nokia G21 for 134e at the moment would probably be sufficient for my usage but sadly support is crap :(
    - randomdata 3y ago
      > You can buy a repairable Nokia G21 for 134e at the moment would probably be sufficient for my usage but sadly support is crap :( At 134e support might be crap. What kind of support contract are they offering you if you throw, say, another 1000e at them? How about 10,000e? 100,000e? To value something requires demonstration of actually valuing it. You can't just say "I value this" and expect things to magically change. Words are meaningless. Only action gets things done. I get the impression that what you actually value is a phone leveraging economies of scale with decent support.
  - MandieD 3y ago
    400 EUR would cover dinner and two nice bottles of wine for 6 at the fanciest restaurant I’ve been to in Nürnberg. What the heck kind of restaurant costs 400 EUR for a single dinner?!
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  > Cool story the usual speech of making it the fault of the consumer ... it's a three-pronged problem with no single faultee. So there are 3 different approaches. - change consumer demands to be more environmentally aware. This is the hardest but most effective angle. because if demands shift, business will shift to make money and consumers in democratic regions will vote in those who also care and enact proper regulations. - make a business that creates that demand. The "Tesla of phones" if you will. This is the "easiest" solution (in the loosest sense of the word) but also the least resiliant. It could fail, or you yourself could fall into the very same rush for profits. - change the regulations. By encouraging others to support certain laws or being in politics yourself as a champion. Middle of the road, in terms of difficulty and effectivenesss. >But you might have heard of economy of scale ? yeah, that's probably why we get these duopolies. providing a global hardware product is absurdly expensive, not really something that can be done by a scrappy startup like software. At that scale companies take every shortcut they can. Unless you convince existing OEMs to provide these products, the "right" solution will never be the cheapest one. And if consumers care about price comparisons over sustainability, that's a stance in and of itself.
  - Timshel 3y ago
    > with no single faultee. I absolutely disagree it's not because society has not caught up and there is almost no cost to pollution that company are not at fault ...
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      do you really think this is only the govt's fault for not reacting fast enough? Or only the company's fault for providing a product people want? I don't see the advatadge in playing the blame game here. I'd rather provide solutions than focus on who did it worse.
f1shy 3y ago
I've suggested that in the past here. But it was (I think correctly) pointed to me, that in most areas there are a monopoly or oligopoly (smartphones, for example) where there is no real option. I do try to squish as much life of my phone, and I changed the make, for a make that gives more updates over longer time. But soon I will have to switch, from a perfectly working 6 yo phone, when Meta or something stops being supported.
- randomdata 3y ago
  Barring impossible regulatory barriers, which isn't really a problem for smartphones, options appear when consumer sentiment is there. In fact, at one time smartphones didn't exist at all. They emerged as a viable product because the consumer saw value in them. Someone will try to build a repairable smartphone as soon as they believe that is what consumers want, and if they got that notion right, it will become the dominate smartphone and everyone else will quickly follow suit to maintain their own profitability. But so long as people don't truly value repairable smartphones (see the other comment about someone wanting a repairable smartphone for practically free – that's not valuing something), there is no realistic avenue for someone to create a repairable one, just as there would have been no realistic avenue to creating smartphones in the first place if the consumer did not see value in them.

Timshel 3y ago

Cool story the usual speech of making it the fault of the consumer ... I want a repairable phone with extended support for around 400e can you find me one ? Fairphone are not too bad but look at the price and they are probably doing the best they can. But you might have heard of economy of scale ? If right to repair becomes law then repairable product might stop being niche and so expensive. Edit: but no let's not pass any law and just continue to let society subsidize corporation pollution.

randomdata 3y ago
> I want a repairable phone with extended support for around 400e can you find me one ? Does 400e speak to you meaningfully valuing such an item? That's little more than a single meal at a high end restaurant, for a highly complex device that takes many thousands of man hours to create. You can't even buy many non-repairable smartphones for that much. This does not demonstrate you valuing a repairable device at all.
- Timshel 3y ago
  You might need to interact with a more diverse group of people ... I don't know where you eat but in Paris a high end meal would start along the line of 100e. You can buy a repairable Nokia G21 for 134e at the moment would probably be sufficient for my usage but sadly support is crap :(
  - randomdata 3y ago
    > You can buy a repairable Nokia G21 for 134e at the moment would probably be sufficient for my usage but sadly support is crap :( At 134e support might be crap. What kind of support contract are they offering you if you throw, say, another 1000e at them? How about 10,000e? 100,000e? To value something requires demonstration of actually valuing it. You can't just say "I value this" and expect things to magically change. Words are meaningless. Only action gets things done. I get the impression that what you actually value is a phone leveraging economies of scale with decent support.
- MandieD 3y ago
  400 EUR would cover dinner and two nice bottles of wine for 6 at the fanciest restaurant I’ve been to in Nürnberg. What the heck kind of restaurant costs 400 EUR for a single dinner?!
johnnyanmac 3y ago
> Cool story the usual speech of making it the fault of the consumer ... it's a three-pronged problem with no single faultee. So there are 3 different approaches. - change consumer demands to be more environmentally aware. This is the hardest but most effective angle. because if demands shift, business will shift to make money and consumers in democratic regions will vote in those who also care and enact proper regulations. - make a business that creates that demand. The "Tesla of phones" if you will. This is the "easiest" solution (in the loosest sense of the word) but also the least resiliant. It could fail, or you yourself could fall into the very same rush for profits. - change the regulations. By encouraging others to support certain laws or being in politics yourself as a champion. Middle of the road, in terms of difficulty and effectivenesss. >But you might have heard of economy of scale ? yeah, that's probably why we get these duopolies. providing a global hardware product is absurdly expensive, not really something that can be done by a scrappy startup like software. At that scale companies take every shortcut they can. Unless you convince existing OEMs to provide these products, the "right" solution will never be the cheapest one. And if consumers care about price comparisons over sustainability, that's a stance in and of itself.
- Timshel 3y ago
  > with no single faultee. I absolutely disagree it's not because society has not caught up and there is almost no cost to pollution that company are not at fault ...
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    do you really think this is only the govt's fault for not reacting fast enough? Or only the company's fault for providing a product people want? I don't see the advatadge in playing the blame game here. I'd rather provide solutions than focus on who did it worse.

f1shy 3y ago

I've suggested that in the past here. But it was (I think correctly) pointed to me, that in most areas there are a monopoly or oligopoly (smartphones, for example) where there is no real option. I do try to squish as much life of my phone, and I changed the make, for a make that gives more updates over longer time. But soon I will have to switch, from a perfectly working 6 yo phone, when Meta or something stops being supported.

randomdata 3y ago
Barring impossible regulatory barriers, which isn't really a problem for smartphones, options appear when consumer sentiment is there. In fact, at one time smartphones didn't exist at all. They emerged as a viable product because the consumer saw value in them. Someone will try to build a repairable smartphone as soon as they believe that is what consumers want, and if they got that notion right, it will become the dominate smartphone and everyone else will quickly follow suit to maintain their own profitability. But so long as people don't truly value repairable smartphones (see the other comment about someone wanting a repairable smartphone for practically free – that's not valuing something), there is no realistic avenue for someone to create a repairable one, just as there would have been no realistic avenue to creating smartphones in the first place if the consumer did not see value in them.