5 ms·

I agree completely but I think there are two things that make software slightly unique from any piece of art: 1. We have a cultural context that tells us how h

I agree completely but I think there are two things that make software slightly unique from any piece of art: 1. We have a cultural context that tells us how hard it is to produce something like a song, or a painting. There's a reverence for it. And so people tend to back off of their estimations for the amount of time required to produce it. 2. Software isn't physical. You can hold a big book in your hand say CRAP! that must have taken a long time to do. But you're just looking at the result of a program, if it's done well, it's a tiny streamlined user interface. The result of one button click could have taken thousands of programming hours and thousands of lines of code but you would never know it. Software obfuscates complexity from the user in a way that someone looking at a huge huge painting or a big book doesn't run in to as much. So if we're talking about the efficiency of natural heuristics in estimating things, I think software is still slightly more difficult to estimate than art. But I agree with your overall point.

hkmurakami 15y ago
1. Definitely agree. But within hacker circles, I am sure there would be similar reverence for a beautifully written algorithm. So I'd venture to say that the issue isn't something that's inherent to software, but rather relative to our cultural/societal upbringing and education. There's the possibility that software may be understood by the larger population in the (hopefully not so) distant future. (I'm probably aided by the fact that many of my good friends are coders, so even if I myself am not capable of writing such great pieces of code, I am constantly developing the crucial context and understanding for the creation process, and what kind of people/work goes into building something great) Also, I have another suspicion, which is that the majority of work that's performed by the people who make such requests are in fact, linear. What kind of work do the ground level sales/marketing/pm types do on a daily basis? Whether it be crunching numbers or writing documents, making phone calls or preparing for meetings, most tasks are measurable and predictable. During my poker playing days, I remember the enlightening phrase, "We expect the other player to act the way we do when placed in a given situation (ie against certain bet patterns/boards)." Similarly, if our daily work is linear and calculable, then it is in our nature to expect the other kinds of work which we cannot completely grasp to be linear and calculable as well. 2. A better analogy for writing would then be a poem, perhaps even a Haiku (which only contains 5+7+5 = 17 syllables). Writing 17 syllables is something we can do in under 30 seconds; writing a masterful work of poetry is something that could take years. (but I completely agree with what you're saying :))
- bigiain 15y ago
  “Perfection is achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” – Antoine de Saint-Exupery Seems presciently apt, considering he died before "programming" as such existed. (1944)
bmelton 15y ago
Regarding point 1, there are people who trade in songs and music, and I can assure you they have less reverence for music than the average person. In many ways, it's generally the consumer or purchaser or something that undervalues it. You have two camps of people, those who commission a work out of reverence to the medium, or to its author/artist, and those who simply trade in the resultant good. A song might seem like something an artist painstakingly crafts over the course of their life to someone in the first camp, or as something that can be banged out in an afternoon to someone in the second, like an ad exec, or a pitch man. As developers, we often deal with our own consumers in the form of project managers or product owners who expect a ship date, and need for the result to be fast, but we aren't exposed to consumers of other art because we (generally speaking) aren't artists who trade in that business.
jarrettcoggin 15y ago
And one of the things that throws some software estimates out the window is when a developer/programmer gets in the zone. There have been times I've hammered out a problem that I had spent days on in a few hours when the inspiration/flow/etc. hit. Something I would have guessed would have taken me a few days more, I end up hammering out in 3 hours. And when you pull these kinds of tricks... People think you can do it again... and again... and again as if it was something you could just conjure out of thin air. There are many papers written on this topic. I've been playing around with a few ways to achieve this more frequently, and it has worked to some degree, but it's not something I could rely on in the heat of battle.
- aerique 15y ago
  But would the problem have taken only a few hours if you hadn't spent those days on it?
- jvdongen 15y ago
  Easy way out - if you estimated 3 days and it turns out to be 3 hours ... simply sit on it for 2 more days ;-)
m_eiman 15y ago
We should always deliver a physical copy, on paper, of everything written during a project together with the invoice. Every whiteboard brainstorm, every source code diff and every email sent and received. Should make a decent stack of paper to give the customer a sense of perspective!
- keithpeter 15y ago
  Like this? http://craigmod.com/journal/digital_physical/ http://craigmod.com/journal/digital_physical/ (was on daringfireball the other day)

hkmurakami 15y ago

1. Definitely agree. But within hacker circles, I am sure there would be similar reverence for a beautifully written algorithm. So I'd venture to say that the issue isn't something that's inherent to software, but rather relative to our cultural/societal upbringing and education. There's the possibility that software may be understood by the larger population in the (hopefully not so) distant future. (I'm probably aided by the fact that many of my good friends are coders, so even if I myself am not capable of writing such great pieces of code, I am constantly developing the crucial context and understanding for the creation process, and what kind of people/work goes into building something great) Also, I have another suspicion, which is that the majority of work that's performed by the people who make such requests are in fact, linear. What kind of work do the ground level sales/marketing/pm types do on a daily basis? Whether it be crunching numbers or writing documents, making phone calls or preparing for meetings, most tasks are measurable and predictable. During my poker playing days, I remember the enlightening phrase, "We expect the other player to act the way we do when placed in a given situation (ie against certain bet patterns/boards)." Similarly, if our daily work is linear and calculable, then it is in our nature to expect the other kinds of work which we cannot completely grasp to be linear and calculable as well. 2. A better analogy for writing would then be a poem, perhaps even a Haiku (which only contains 5+7+5 = 17 syllables). Writing 17 syllables is something we can do in under 30 seconds; writing a masterful work of poetry is something that could take years. (but I completely agree with what you're saying :))

bigiain 15y ago
“Perfection is achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away” – Antoine de Saint-Exupery Seems presciently apt, considering he died before "programming" as such existed. (1944)

bmelton 15y ago

Regarding point 1, there are people who trade in songs and music, and I can assure you they have less reverence for music than the average person. In many ways, it's generally the consumer or purchaser or something that undervalues it. You have two camps of people, those who commission a work out of reverence to the medium, or to its author/artist, and those who simply trade in the resultant good. A song might seem like something an artist painstakingly crafts over the course of their life to someone in the first camp, or as something that can be banged out in an afternoon to someone in the second, like an ad exec, or a pitch man. As developers, we often deal with our own consumers in the form of project managers or product owners who expect a ship date, and need for the result to be fast, but we aren't exposed to consumers of other art because we (generally speaking) aren't artists who trade in that business.

jarrettcoggin 15y ago

And one of the things that throws some software estimates out the window is when a developer/programmer gets in the zone. There have been times I've hammered out a problem that I had spent days on in a few hours when the inspiration/flow/etc. hit. Something I would have guessed would have taken me a few days more, I end up hammering out in 3 hours. And when you pull these kinds of tricks... People think you can do it again... and again... and again as if it was something you could just conjure out of thin air. There are many papers written on this topic. I've been playing around with a few ways to achieve this more frequently, and it has worked to some degree, but it's not something I could rely on in the heat of battle.

aerique 15y ago
But would the problem have taken only a few hours if you hadn't spent those days on it?
jvdongen 15y ago
Easy way out - if you estimated 3 days and it turns out to be 3 hours ... simply sit on it for 2 more days ;-)

m_eiman 15y ago

We should always deliver a physical copy, on paper, of everything written during a project together with the invoice. Every whiteboard brainstorm, every source code diff and every email sent and received. Should make a decent stack of paper to give the customer a sense of perspective!

keithpeter 15y ago
Like this? http://craigmod.com/journal/digital_physical/ http://craigmod.com/journal/digital_physical/ (was on daringfireball the other day)