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> As soon as the story broke, it was clear to me that whoever did it, it was an accident. So in that sense, it doesn't really matter. It's an unfortunate casual

> As soon as the story broke, it was clear to me that whoever did it, it was an accident. So in that sense, it doesn't really matter. It's an unfortunate casualty of war, in which innocent people suffer even when it's not intended. What’s this based on? Vibes? People are upset about this because it, in fact, does matter. Intentionally destroying a hospital is an atrocity; in the context of a war, it’s a war crime. This kind of false, lofty even-handedness doesn’t really work when the matter in dispute is human rights violations.

names_are_hard 3y ago
Lofty even-handedness was not my intention, I have a definite side in this conflict because it personally affects me. I'm not unbiased and make no claim to be. I live in Israel and I'm scared of how this will end because I have skin in the game. It doesn't matter to me who hit the hospital because I don't believe it was intentional. That's not to say the deaths don't matter, they do, and we should mourn them. And that's not to say that blame for the overall war doesn't matter, it does, I don't mean to say that we can't know anything and I'm not offering some bland hope for a ceasefire and end of suffering for all sides. I'm saying that I don't believe figuring out whose errant projectile is responsible for this particular tragedy materially changes how I feel about the war[0]. Can I prove that it wasn't intentional? No, I can't. But I consider it much more likely than the claim that it was intentional. The Israeli claim is that it was an Islamic Jihad mistake, they're not arguing it was intentional. I don't know if Hamas claims Israeli did it intentionally or by accident, but it is entirely against Israel's interest to hit it intentionally and I see no reason they'd kick the ball into their own goal so spectacularly. Mistakes happen. War is terrible. And yes, this war includes a lot of war crimes. [0] If eventually we find actual evidence that this was an intentional strike by the Israeli military, I will retract my position and express shock and horror at my government. I already express my anger at my more extreme, fundamentalist countrymen for their actions and statements that I consider to be immoral. The fact that they're on my team does not spare them from my wrath, on the contrary, I get more angry at them for the damage they do than I do at the extremists on the other side.
- seo-speedwagon 3y ago
  Since you’re being forthright about your biases, it’s only fair I do the same. My words were harsh because I feel that the original sentiment I objected to is precisely the kind of sentiment those who would continue perpetrating the genocide against Palestinians would like to engender among the public. The sentiment for those who are too busy or too distracted to look beyond a superficial level and just read headlines from the major media outlets: “it’s a complicated situation”; “oh, there’s more unrest in the Middle East”; “it’s all such a shame, I wish there could be peace”. For genocidaires, this kind of muddying the water is exactly what you would want for incidents that would polarize fence sitters or those not paying attention. It’s precisely the same kind of attribution-less passive voice headlines people object to when talking about other more familiar things. I disagree with any assertions that it’s likely an accident, or that Israel would not want to bomb a hospital. Several high profile Israeli officials have stated over and over that they don’t consider Palestinians as human beings. Yoav Gallant has said “we are fighting human animals” and I’m not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt that he really only meant that to apply to Hamas when in the same statement he talked about cutting off all good, water and electricity to Gaza. And now there’s news that St Porphyrius Church was struck by a “blast”. Am I to also believe this was an accident? Another case where a Hamas rocket somehow caused an order of magnitude more damage than has ever been been recorded when striking Israel?
  - names_are_hard 3y ago
    Thanks for replying in length and with sincerity. I'm not going to address everything in your comment not because it isn't worthy of a response but because I personally don't have a response that is substantive and thoughtful. If anyone else wants to reply they're welcome to. In any case I'm not a spokesperson for my country. I'll say two things: 0. "Human animals" bothers me - I disapprove of the extreme language I'm hearing in public discourse in Israel these days, after the events of Oct 7 there's been a shift in public discourse that normalizes this kind of language. I think it's wrong and harmful. I wish it would stop. 1. If you or anyone close to you is currently in Gaza (or the West Bank, or Israel, for that matter) - I truly hope they will be safe and come out the other end of this war ok, or as ok as is possible given the circumstances. From what I'm hearing on the news here in Israel, sounds like things are going to get worse before they get better. All I can do is hope that we see better days soon.
colonCapitalDee 3y ago
Yes, bombing Ahli Arab hospital is an atrocity and a war crime. You know it, I know it, Israel knows it, and Hamas knows it. Hamas doesn't have a lot of reasons to intentionally blow up a Palestinian hospital, beyond maybe trying to stage a false flag attack. Israel has more reasons; Israel could have been targeting weapons stored in the hospital or a high value target. But even if Israel did have intelligence that made them think there was something worth striking in Ahli Arab, the political repercussions of striking a hospital would be so severe that I doubt they would pull the trigger. The commenter you quoted was likely thinking something along the lines of "neither side has a strong motive to intentionally bomb Ahli Arab, so the most likely reason for the bombing is an accidental strike. Assuming that the accident isn't part of a trend of accidents, the unfortunate reality of war is that accidents happen on all sides. Thus, it doesn't really matter if it was an Israeli accident or a Hamas accident." Should we investigate and determine if the strike really was an accident? Yes, of course. But we can also predict that the result of that investigation will be "it was an accident", and start to make preliminary conclusions predicated on that.

names_are_hard 3y ago

Lofty even-handedness was not my intention, I have a definite side in this conflict because it personally affects me. I'm not unbiased and make no claim to be. I live in Israel and I'm scared of how this will end because I have skin in the game. It doesn't matter to me who hit the hospital because I don't believe it was intentional. That's not to say the deaths don't matter, they do, and we should mourn them. And that's not to say that blame for the overall war doesn't matter, it does, I don't mean to say that we can't know anything and I'm not offering some bland hope for a ceasefire and end of suffering for all sides. I'm saying that I don't believe figuring out whose errant projectile is responsible for this particular tragedy materially changes how I feel about the war[0]. Can I prove that it wasn't intentional? No, I can't. But I consider it much more likely than the claim that it was intentional. The Israeli claim is that it was an Islamic Jihad mistake, they're not arguing it was intentional. I don't know if Hamas claims Israeli did it intentionally or by accident, but it is entirely against Israel's interest to hit it intentionally and I see no reason they'd kick the ball into their own goal so spectacularly. Mistakes happen. War is terrible. And yes, this war includes a lot of war crimes. [0] If eventually we find actual evidence that this was an intentional strike by the Israeli military, I will retract my position and express shock and horror at my government. I already express my anger at my more extreme, fundamentalist countrymen for their actions and statements that I consider to be immoral. The fact that they're on my team does not spare them from my wrath, on the contrary, I get more angry at them for the damage they do than I do at the extremists on the other side.

seo-speedwagon 3y ago
Since you’re being forthright about your biases, it’s only fair I do the same. My words were harsh because I feel that the original sentiment I objected to is precisely the kind of sentiment those who would continue perpetrating the genocide against Palestinians would like to engender among the public. The sentiment for those who are too busy or too distracted to look beyond a superficial level and just read headlines from the major media outlets: “it’s a complicated situation”; “oh, there’s more unrest in the Middle East”; “it’s all such a shame, I wish there could be peace”. For genocidaires, this kind of muddying the water is exactly what you would want for incidents that would polarize fence sitters or those not paying attention. It’s precisely the same kind of attribution-less passive voice headlines people object to when talking about other more familiar things. I disagree with any assertions that it’s likely an accident, or that Israel would not want to bomb a hospital. Several high profile Israeli officials have stated over and over that they don’t consider Palestinians as human beings. Yoav Gallant has said “we are fighting human animals” and I’m not inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt that he really only meant that to apply to Hamas when in the same statement he talked about cutting off all good, water and electricity to Gaza. And now there’s news that St Porphyrius Church was struck by a “blast”. Am I to also believe this was an accident? Another case where a Hamas rocket somehow caused an order of magnitude more damage than has ever been been recorded when striking Israel?
- names_are_hard 3y ago
  Thanks for replying in length and with sincerity. I'm not going to address everything in your comment not because it isn't worthy of a response but because I personally don't have a response that is substantive and thoughtful. If anyone else wants to reply they're welcome to. In any case I'm not a spokesperson for my country. I'll say two things: 0. "Human animals" bothers me - I disapprove of the extreme language I'm hearing in public discourse in Israel these days, after the events of Oct 7 there's been a shift in public discourse that normalizes this kind of language. I think it's wrong and harmful. I wish it would stop. 1. If you or anyone close to you is currently in Gaza (or the West Bank, or Israel, for that matter) - I truly hope they will be safe and come out the other end of this war ok, or as ok as is possible given the circumstances. From what I'm hearing on the news here in Israel, sounds like things are going to get worse before they get better. All I can do is hope that we see better days soon.

colonCapitalDee 3y ago

Yes, bombing Ahli Arab hospital is an atrocity and a war crime. You know it, I know it, Israel knows it, and Hamas knows it. Hamas doesn't have a lot of reasons to intentionally blow up a Palestinian hospital, beyond maybe trying to stage a false flag attack. Israel has more reasons; Israel could have been targeting weapons stored in the hospital or a high value target. But even if Israel did have intelligence that made them think there was something worth striking in Ahli Arab, the political repercussions of striking a hospital would be so severe that I doubt they would pull the trigger. The commenter you quoted was likely thinking something along the lines of "neither side has a strong motive to intentionally bomb Ahli Arab, so the most likely reason for the bombing is an accidental strike. Assuming that the accident isn't part of a trend of accidents, the unfortunate reality of war is that accidents happen on all sides. Thus, it doesn't really matter if it was an Israeli accident or a Hamas accident." Should we investigate and determine if the strike really was an accident? Yes, of course. But we can also predict that the result of that investigation will be "it was an accident", and start to make preliminary conclusions predicated on that.