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The reason everyone believed it was Israel is because they do it all the time. Today they bombed a church. I find it funny (as long as you ignore that these ev

The reason everyone believed it was Israel is because they do it all the time. Today they bombed a church. I find it funny (as long as you ignore that these events involve dead people) that Silver here is up in arms for an alleged misattribution when it happens otherwise every day and nobody is bothered. A novel thought: maybe stop bombing civilians and the chance of you unjustly being accused of bombing civilians goes dramatically down.

Pxtl 3y ago
Yes, but still the media has a responsibility to note the credibility, or lack thereof, of their sources. When Israeli military officials say "this was certainly a Palistinian attack", the news media should be noting cases where they lied about that in the past (eg the death of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh). Likewise when Gaza officials say the reverse, the same should happen. I get that journalism will have bias, both personally and based on past actions because they're human and because of basic pattern recognition. But when discussing the facts of an event, it's important to separate what we know (an explosion happened at a hospital in Gaza) and what we're getting from dubious sources (that it was an Israeli airstrike or an Islamic Jihad rocket failure). In the end, it looks very likely that it was, in fact, the Islamic Jihad rocket. But on day one? No journalistic source should be repeating assertions of blame from untrustworthy and extremely interested parties without the appropriate caveats.
- locallost 3y ago
  I agree with that, but the more relevant "moral" story from this one is that nobody blinked when it was first reported. It's problematic that this is obviously normalized.
yieldcrv 3y ago
“yes, but you also shot the human shields, because you wanted to”
zaphar 3y ago
Both groups do it all the time. The difference is that, Isreal doesn't lie about it when they do it while Hamas lies about pretty much everything.
- yieldcrv 3y ago
  Transparency in government doesn’t equate to anything we need to tolerate.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  That's complete nonsense. They do it all the time, and they lie or distort at will. Just like every other government, military, or secret service. Example: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/canadian-killed-at-un-post-in-lebanon/article1106386/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/canadian-killed-a... https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-of-a-canadian-peacekeeper-killed-at-war/ https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-... https://www.cjpme.org/fs_033 https://www.cjpme.org/fs_033 IDF fired on a UN post and killed neutral UN observers, including a Canadian citizen. They've never admitted it was deliberate... but they did it because of the specific neutrality interventions of that UN post... as a signal to STFU ... and everybody knows it. And because of alliances with Israel even the Canadian gov't wouldn't raise protest. "The question of how and why it [UN base] was on their targeting list has never been legally resolved. The Israelis claim it was a data-entry error—put on their target list by mistake. But they have prevented any organization or government from verifying that claim; including both the UN and the Canadian government." It's not like anybody is forcing you to think in terms where there's only Hamas or IDF to choose from. That's a mental framework you're choosing for yourself. It's not a football game.
  - zaphar 3y ago
    Israel did not pretend they hadn't fired the missile in that case. You may disagree with whether it was deliberate or not but you have no evidence that it was. Which fine, that's a mental framework you are choosing for yourself. Hamas, meanwhile, has been caught lying multiple times over the years with actual evidence of those lies. Objectively one of these is far more reliable than the others in their relationship to the truth.
deschutes 3y ago
And yet this was newsworthy for the unusual number of deaths. That's pretty telling. To your broader point, yes just ignore the problem and everything will go away. That has worked so well. The folks calling for an unconditional surrender of Hamas are not wrong. That's the only way to end this bloodshed, that, yes, includes civilians on both sides. Only one side is doing it with the primary intent to kill civilians though.
rasz 3y ago
Do you mean this Church you can clearly see still standing in the photo? https://nitter.net/Osinttechnical/status/1715361491006747073 https://nitter.net/Osinttechnical/status/1715361491006747073 So you believed a Church was bombed today when in fact it was a building next to it and Church is fine. What does that tell you about sources you use for news? > maybe stop bombing civilians There are missile barrages incoming from Gaza daily, civilians dont shoot rockets. Civilian buildings dont experience secondary explosions when collapsing.
- locallost 3y ago
  I read Reuters [1]. They quote the Orthodox Church itself: > A Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip which was sheltering hundreds of displaced Palestinians was hit overnight by an Israeli air strike, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem said, and Palestinian health officials said 16 people were killed. > There was no word from the Church on a death toll. > The Israeli military said a part of the church was damaged in a strike on a militant command centre and it was reviewing the incident. I do not read anything with a name referencing osint, nor other astroturfers. There are missiles coming into Gaza also daily. I think it should all stop. Do you agree? [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hi...
  - rasz 3y ago
    So pictures taken by Hamas and journalists are no evidence for you of continued existence of the Church. How about video feed from the jet dropping the bomb? From Greek Orthodox source no less: https://twitter.com/greekcitytimes/status/1715503512266957196 https://twitter.com/greekcitytimes/status/171550351226695719...
    - locallost 3y ago
      I said they bombed a church. You said I should reconsider my sources. My source was Reuters, quoting the Church representatives, saying: "...was hit overnight by an Israeli air strike". In no shape or form was it anywhere implied that the church no longer exists, just that it was bombed. The quote from a non-hamas source in a respectable news source confirms it was hit. That you're poorly attempting to make some kind of an argument that never was tells me you have no leg to stand on.
jahewson 3y ago
> Today they bombed a church “says Palestinian Officials”.

Pxtl 3y ago

Yes, but still the media has a responsibility to note the credibility, or lack thereof, of their sources. When Israeli military officials say "this was certainly a Palistinian attack", the news media should be noting cases where they lied about that in the past (eg the death of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh). Likewise when Gaza officials say the reverse, the same should happen. I get that journalism will have bias, both personally and based on past actions because they're human and because of basic pattern recognition. But when discussing the facts of an event, it's important to separate what we know (an explosion happened at a hospital in Gaza) and what we're getting from dubious sources (that it was an Israeli airstrike or an Islamic Jihad rocket failure). In the end, it looks very likely that it was, in fact, the Islamic Jihad rocket. But on day one? No journalistic source should be repeating assertions of blame from untrustworthy and extremely interested parties without the appropriate caveats.

locallost 3y ago
I agree with that, but the more relevant "moral" story from this one is that nobody blinked when it was first reported. It's problematic that this is obviously normalized.

yieldcrv 3y ago

“yes, but you also shot the human shields, because you wanted to”

zaphar 3y ago

Both groups do it all the time. The difference is that, Isreal doesn't lie about it when they do it while Hamas lies about pretty much everything.

yieldcrv 3y ago
Transparency in government doesn’t equate to anything we need to tolerate.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
That's complete nonsense. They do it all the time, and they lie or distort at will. Just like every other government, military, or secret service. Example: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/canadian-killed-at-un-post-in-lebanon/article1106386/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/canadian-killed-a... https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-of-a-canadian-peacekeeper-killed-at-war/ https://legionmagazine.com/one-martyr-down-the-untold-story-... https://www.cjpme.org/fs_033 https://www.cjpme.org/fs_033 IDF fired on a UN post and killed neutral UN observers, including a Canadian citizen. They've never admitted it was deliberate... but they did it because of the specific neutrality interventions of that UN post... as a signal to STFU ... and everybody knows it. And because of alliances with Israel even the Canadian gov't wouldn't raise protest. "The question of how and why it [UN base] was on their targeting list has never been legally resolved. The Israelis claim it was a data-entry error—put on their target list by mistake. But they have prevented any organization or government from verifying that claim; including both the UN and the Canadian government." It's not like anybody is forcing you to think in terms where there's only Hamas or IDF to choose from. That's a mental framework you're choosing for yourself. It's not a football game.
- zaphar 3y ago
  Israel did not pretend they hadn't fired the missile in that case. You may disagree with whether it was deliberate or not but you have no evidence that it was. Which fine, that's a mental framework you are choosing for yourself. Hamas, meanwhile, has been caught lying multiple times over the years with actual evidence of those lies. Objectively one of these is far more reliable than the others in their relationship to the truth.

deschutes 3y ago

And yet this was newsworthy for the unusual number of deaths. That's pretty telling. To your broader point, yes just ignore the problem and everything will go away. That has worked so well. The folks calling for an unconditional surrender of Hamas are not wrong. That's the only way to end this bloodshed, that, yes, includes civilians on both sides. Only one side is doing it with the primary intent to kill civilians though.

rasz 3y ago

Do you mean this Church you can clearly see still standing in the photo? https://nitter.net/Osinttechnical/status/1715361491006747073 https://nitter.net/Osinttechnical/status/1715361491006747073 So you believed a Church was bombed today when in fact it was a building next to it and Church is fine. What does that tell you about sources you use for news? > maybe stop bombing civilians There are missile barrages incoming from Gaza daily, civilians dont shoot rockets. Civilian buildings dont experience secondary explosions when collapsing.

locallost 3y ago
I read Reuters [1]. They quote the Orthodox Church itself: > A Greek Orthodox church in the Gaza Strip which was sheltering hundreds of displaced Palestinians was hit overnight by an Israeli air strike, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem said, and Palestinian health officials said 16 people were killed. > There was no word from the Church on a death toll. > The Israeli military said a part of the church was damaged in a strike on a militant command centre and it was reviewing the incident. I do not read anything with a name referencing osint, nor other astroturfers. There are missiles coming into Gaza also daily. I think it should all stop. Do you agree? [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hit-by-israeli-air-strike-gaza-2023-10-20/ https://www.reuters.com/world/orthodox-church-says-it-was-hi...
- rasz 3y ago
  So pictures taken by Hamas and journalists are no evidence for you of continued existence of the Church. How about video feed from the jet dropping the bomb? From Greek Orthodox source no less: https://twitter.com/greekcitytimes/status/1715503512266957196 https://twitter.com/greekcitytimes/status/171550351226695719...
  - locallost 3y ago
    I said they bombed a church. You said I should reconsider my sources. My source was Reuters, quoting the Church representatives, saying: "...was hit overnight by an Israeli air strike". In no shape or form was it anywhere implied that the church no longer exists, just that it was bombed. The quote from a non-hamas source in a respectable news source confirms it was hit. That you're poorly attempting to make some kind of an argument that never was tells me you have no leg to stand on.

jahewson 3y ago

> Today they bombed a church “says Palestinian Officials”.