3 ms·

Proteomic Analysis of Vlad III the Impaler's Documents

43 points by gniv 3y ago

codeulike 3y ago
That headline bought to mind a very strong image of Vlad the Impaler sitting at a desk fiddling around with settings in Word to get the font spacing he wanted.
- dmvdoug 3y ago
  And then impaling his IT guy when Word yet again automatically formats something into a list despite having turned that off in the settings.
  - srge 3y ago
    "Notice you're writing in Transylvanian Times New Roman. Need assistance inserting bat-shaped bullet points?" — Clippy
- selimthegrim 3y ago
  Fraktur do be like that tho
- bitwize 3y ago
  The Osaka Castle museum has a special floor where no photography is allowed. On this floor are many of Toyotomi Hideyoshi's personal effects, including articles of his samurai armor and letters he sent to or received from others. It's kind of staggering to look at the characters on a page and imagine Toyotomi shaping them individually with his brush. Shaping Japanese history in the process.
- DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
  chronology checks out. Due to issues with fonts and spacing Vlad didn't even impale anyone until his mid-30ies. Never give up and follow your dreams!
gniv 3y ago
I found the whole thing fascinating, although a bit hard to read due to all the jargon. I recommend reading the last two sections, Discussion and Conclusions. Edit: Are there bloggers or youtubers who explain these processes in a more accessible way?
Planktonne 3y ago
"Hubristic scientists extracted biological material from Dracula's correspondence" is a solid concept for a horror story.
gtsnexp 3y ago
The paper suggests specific health conditions for Vlad the Impaler based solely on the presence of certain peptides and proteins. This is a very fragile link, particularly without the benefit of transcriptome or sequencing data to provide context for these molecular markers. Mass spectrometry, while useful for protein characterisation, doesn't necessarily offer insights into the functional relevance of these proteins in the context of health or disease.
- gniv 3y ago
  For me, the conclusions about the potential diseases are interesting, but not terribly so. I just find it remarkable how many bits of information we can now extract from old uncontaminated [1] documents. Viruses, bacteria, fungi, insects. And the conclusions we can draw from these. [1] The authors seem to have gone to great length to verify that the letters were not contaminated. Among other things, they created and touched a modern letter, which they also analyzed. Remarkably only 20 peptides were in common between old and new.
- shpongled 3y ago
  I would argue that mass spectrometry based proteomics is capable of offering much better insight into functional relevance than transcriptomics. Proteins carry out function... and mRNA levels are only loosely coupled to protein levels (at best, expect an R^2 < 0.4). Why measure RNA when what you really care about are proteins? People just do transcriptomics because it's cheap. This particular paper has flaws - as you mentioned, only a very small number of peptides are measured. I work on proteomics, and I remember this discussion from when the paper was initially published: https://mstdn.social/@pwilmart@scicomm.xyz/110872056816456285 https://mstdn.social/@pwilmart@scicomm.xyz/11087205681645628... Paleoproteomics isn't what I would call well developed at this stage. How do we know that the peptides that were detected were actually from Vlad? Many people may have handled the letters over the years.
  - gniv 3y ago
    > How do we know that the peptides that were detected were actually from Vlad? Many people may have handled the letters over the years. The authors acknowledge that it's a possibility. But there are mitigating circumstances. From the article: "the Sibiu Archive was founded in 1465 and it has been officially operating since that year. So, the two well-preserved documents of 1475 immediately began to be stored in the city’s official archive."
furstenheim 3y ago
> has been exponentially increasing since the beginning of the new millennium A part of me suffers everytime someone uses that expression
inciampati 3y ago
Impressive technical feat, but speculative conclusions. Trace peptides don't diagnose complex conditions. Likely multiple handlers, lacks definitive mutations linking Vlad the Impaler's conditions to the document. Non-invasive sampling is cool, but diagnosing Vlad seems an overreach. Clues, not decisive proof.

43 points by gniv 3y ago

That headline bought to mind a very strong image of Vlad the Impaler sitting at a desk fiddling around with settings in Word to get the font spacing he wanted.

dmvdoug 3y ago
And then impaling his IT guy when Word yet again automatically formats something into a list despite having turned that off in the settings.
- srge 3y ago
  "Notice you're writing in Transylvanian Times New Roman. Need assistance inserting bat-shaped bullet points?" — Clippy
selimthegrim 3y ago
Fraktur do be like that tho
bitwize 3y ago
The Osaka Castle museum has a special floor where no photography is allowed. On this floor are many of Toyotomi Hideyoshi's personal effects, including articles of his samurai armor and letters he sent to or received from others. It's kind of staggering to look at the characters on a page and imagine Toyotomi shaping them individually with his brush. Shaping Japanese history in the process.
DyslexicAtheist 3y ago
chronology checks out. Due to issues with fonts and spacing Vlad didn't even impale anyone until his mid-30ies. Never give up and follow your dreams!

gniv 3y ago

I found the whole thing fascinating, although a bit hard to read due to all the jargon. I recommend reading the last two sections, Discussion and Conclusions. Edit: Are there bloggers or youtubers who explain these processes in a more accessible way?

Planktonne 3y ago

"Hubristic scientists extracted biological material from Dracula's correspondence" is a solid concept for a horror story.

gtsnexp 3y ago

The paper suggests specific health conditions for Vlad the Impaler based solely on the presence of certain peptides and proteins. This is a very fragile link, particularly without the benefit of transcriptome or sequencing data to provide context for these molecular markers. Mass spectrometry, while useful for protein characterisation, doesn't necessarily offer insights into the functional relevance of these proteins in the context of health or disease.

gniv 3y ago
For me, the conclusions about the potential diseases are interesting, but not terribly so. I just find it remarkable how many bits of information we can now extract from old uncontaminated [1] documents. Viruses, bacteria, fungi, insects. And the conclusions we can draw from these. [1] The authors seem to have gone to great length to verify that the letters were not contaminated. Among other things, they created and touched a modern letter, which they also analyzed. Remarkably only 20 peptides were in common between old and new.
shpongled 3y ago
I would argue that mass spectrometry based proteomics is capable of offering much better insight into functional relevance than transcriptomics. Proteins carry out function... and mRNA levels are only loosely coupled to protein levels (at best, expect an R^2 < 0.4). Why measure RNA when what you really care about are proteins? People just do transcriptomics because it's cheap. This particular paper has flaws - as you mentioned, only a very small number of peptides are measured. I work on proteomics, and I remember this discussion from when the paper was initially published: https://mstdn.social/@pwilmart@scicomm.xyz/110872056816456285 https://mstdn.social/@pwilmart@scicomm.xyz/11087205681645628... Paleoproteomics isn't what I would call well developed at this stage. How do we know that the peptides that were detected were actually from Vlad? Many people may have handled the letters over the years.
- gniv 3y ago
  > How do we know that the peptides that were detected were actually from Vlad? Many people may have handled the letters over the years. The authors acknowledge that it's a possibility. But there are mitigating circumstances. From the article: "the Sibiu Archive was founded in 1465 and it has been officially operating since that year. So, the two well-preserved documents of 1475 immediately began to be stored in the city’s official archive."

furstenheim 3y ago

> has been exponentially increasing since the beginning of the new millennium A part of me suffers everytime someone uses that expression

inciampati 3y ago

Impressive technical feat, but speculative conclusions. Trace peptides don't diagnose complex conditions. Likely multiple handlers, lacks definitive mutations linking Vlad the Impaler's conditions to the document. Non-invasive sampling is cool, but diagnosing Vlad seems an overreach. Clues, not decisive proof.