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> Toyota is lagging badly in EVs No, Toyota invested heavily in hybrid technology in order to keep their ICE core business alive and then tried to go all in on

> Toyota is lagging badly in EVs No, Toyota invested heavily in hybrid technology in order to keep their ICE core business alive and then tried to go all in on Hydrogen with heavy lobby to top it off. They are not lagging behind, they made multiple bad calls, betting on the wrong horses and are now paying the price.

jgalt212 3y ago
Are they lagging? EV demand has seemed to peak. EVs are still too expensive without govt incentives and / or carbon taxes. And let's not forget the culture wars supressing demand.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  There's more to the world than the US. You can get an EV for $4500 in China, and surprise surprise, sales are going gangbusters: they sold more than the rest of the world combined last year.
  - fgdfg354321 3y ago
    Those prices are kept artificially low by the Chinese government by subsidizing though
    - orf 3y ago
      As are fuel prices in the US
      - todd8 3y ago
        How precisely? The taxes on profits from oil & gas related businesses are complex, but I honestly (as a computer scientist unrelated to oil & gas businesses) don't understand the claims that we subsidize oil & gas production. I know that the oil & gas industry is heavily taxed and there are numerous exemptions and complications to the tax regulations for that industry just as there are for other industries, but on balance it appears that oil & gas production pays billions to the US and state governments. See [1], for example. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunking-myths-about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/?sh=655347066e1c https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunki...
        DoingIsLearning 3y ago
        Price point and taxation do not reflect external costs and are being offset by subsidies or tax deductions [0] [0] https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2021/09/23/Still-Not-Getting-Energy-Prices-Right-A-Global-and-Country-Update-of-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-466004 https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2021/09/23/Sti...
        todd8 3y ago
        Thank you, the paper you cite makes clear claims: that the environmental (climate change, air pollution, etc.) impact should be priced into the cost of petroleum based fuels. The paper states that 92% of the subsidies to the oil & gas industry are because of the price of fuel doesn't reflect the societal costs related to pollution. The interesting finding presented in the paper are: [p. 9] "Underpricing of fossil fuels is still pervasive across countries and is often substantial, especially for coal." [p. 9] 18% of these subsidies go to gasoline [p. 9] "The power generation sector is the largest recipient of subsidies" [p. 10] "By region East Asia and the Pacific accounts for 48 percent of total energy subsidies" [p. 7] China and India together had 3.4 Million premature deaths due to air pollution in 2020 (The USA had 0.1 Million) From an economic efficiency point of view, I can understand that prices are important, but wouldn't we have to take account of the benefits of using petroleum fuels too? Like allowing developing countries to feed their populations? They clearly can't do this with solar powered agriculture and solar powered shipping.
justin66 3y ago
> They are not lagging behind, they made multiple bad calls, betting on the wrong horses and are now paying the price. They make cars as fast as they can sell them and have a backlog of orders. "Paying the price" is one thing they are not doing.

jgalt212 3y ago

Are they lagging? EV demand has seemed to peak. EVs are still too expensive without govt incentives and / or carbon taxes. And let's not forget the culture wars supressing demand.

resolutebat 3y ago
There's more to the world than the US. You can get an EV for $4500 in China, and surprise surprise, sales are going gangbusters: they sold more than the rest of the world combined last year.
- fgdfg354321 3y ago
  Those prices are kept artificially low by the Chinese government by subsidizing though
  - orf 3y ago
    As are fuel prices in the US
    - todd8 3y ago
      How precisely? The taxes on profits from oil & gas related businesses are complex, but I honestly (as a computer scientist unrelated to oil & gas businesses) don't understand the claims that we subsidize oil & gas production. I know that the oil & gas industry is heavily taxed and there are numerous exemptions and complications to the tax regulations for that industry just as there are for other industries, but on balance it appears that oil & gas production pays billions to the US and state governments. See [1], for example. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunking-myths-about-federal-oil-gas-subsidies/?sh=655347066e1c https://www.forbes.com/sites/drillinginfo/2016/02/22/debunki...
      - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
        Price point and taxation do not reflect external costs and are being offset by subsidies or tax deductions [0] [0] https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2021/09/23/Still-Not-Getting-Energy-Prices-Right-A-Global-and-Country-Update-of-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-466004 https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2021/09/23/Sti...
        todd8 3y ago
        Thank you, the paper you cite makes clear claims: that the environmental (climate change, air pollution, etc.) impact should be priced into the cost of petroleum based fuels. The paper states that 92% of the subsidies to the oil & gas industry are because of the price of fuel doesn't reflect the societal costs related to pollution. The interesting finding presented in the paper are: [p. 9] "Underpricing of fossil fuels is still pervasive across countries and is often substantial, especially for coal." [p. 9] 18% of these subsidies go to gasoline [p. 9] "The power generation sector is the largest recipient of subsidies" [p. 10] "By region East Asia and the Pacific accounts for 48 percent of total energy subsidies" [p. 7] China and India together had 3.4 Million premature deaths due to air pollution in 2020 (The USA had 0.1 Million) From an economic efficiency point of view, I can understand that prices are important, but wouldn't we have to take account of the benefits of using petroleum fuels too? Like allowing developing countries to feed their populations? They clearly can't do this with solar powered agriculture and solar powered shipping.

justin66 3y ago

> They are not lagging behind, they made multiple bad calls, betting on the wrong horses and are now paying the price. They make cars as fast as they can sell them and have a backlog of orders. "Paying the price" is one thing they are not doing.