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I found it truly incredulous that you are trying to defend the position that $500k a year salary is middle class.

dheera 3y ago
You do realize that's $250K after taxes, here in California? Which is $140K in year 2000 dollars. Houses here cost $1M for a dump, or $2M for something decent. 20-30 years ago, being able to afford a home was a pretty standard thing for anyone in the middle class. A 1-bedroom rental apartment costs $2500/month for something moldy and not wired to modern electrical code, or $3000/month for something clean, safe, and sanitary (you pick). Plus $500 for basic utilities (water+gas+electric+internet+phone). Seems pretty squarely middle class to me.
- cipheredStones 3y ago
  No, seriously, it's insane that you're trying to defend this claim. Median US household income after taxes in 2022 was $64,240. If you make *quadruple* median household income after taxes, you are not middle class. Median post-tax household income was $34,123 in 2000, so $140k was quadruple that too. Median pre-tax household income in San Francisco is $126k. The standard guideline for an apartment being affordable is "30% of your pre-tax income or less"; a $3k apartment would be affordable by that metric for someone making $120k before taxes. In San Francisco itself, single-family houses do start at around $1M, but it is not remotely true that you need to spend $2M for "something decent" - there are tons for like $1.2M, I'm looking at Zillow right now. You can get a two-bedroom condo in a pretty good neighborhood for like $750k. House price affordability guidelines are "3-5x pre-tax annual income", so even in SF, the paradigmatic housing-crisis city, you could afford a $1.2M house on $250k or a $750k condo on $150k. All of this is just setting aside the question of "if you can just afford to buy a house in one of the most expensive places in the country, does that make you middle class", for which the actual answer is no. But by absolutely no sane metric is $500k/yr "squarely middle class".
  - dheera 3y ago
    > "30% of your pre-tax income or less" That makes sense in a world where taxes are 15%. But in a world where taxes are close to 50%, you probably want to be thinking about 30% of POST-tax income, not pre-tax. If you rented at 30% of pre-tax, take away 45% for taxes, you have only 25% left. There's no way you'll live on 25% AND have room for savings for purchasing housing. > House price affordability guidelines are "3-5x pre-tax annual income" Uh, no, I'd say 3-5X post-tax post-food post-rent post-everything-else. That would mean you could afford a house in 3-5 years. Seriously, I live here and almost nobody with a total household income of less than 600-800K actually owns a home here.

You do realize that's $250K after taxes, here in California? Which is $140K in year 2000 dollars. Houses here cost $1M for a dump, or $2M for something decent. 20-30 years ago, being able to afford a home was a pretty standard thing for anyone in the middle class. A 1-bedroom rental apartment costs $2500/month for something moldy and not wired to modern electrical code, or $3000/month for something clean, safe, and sanitary (you pick). Plus $500 for basic utilities (water+gas+electric+internet+phone). Seems pretty squarely middle class to me.

cipheredStones 3y ago
No, seriously, it's insane that you're trying to defend this claim. Median US household income after taxes in 2022 was $64,240. If you make *quadruple* median household income after taxes, you are not middle class. Median post-tax household income was $34,123 in 2000, so $140k was quadruple that too. Median pre-tax household income in San Francisco is $126k. The standard guideline for an apartment being affordable is "30% of your pre-tax income or less"; a $3k apartment would be affordable by that metric for someone making $120k before taxes. In San Francisco itself, single-family houses do start at around $1M, but it is not remotely true that you need to spend $2M for "something decent" - there are tons for like $1.2M, I'm looking at Zillow right now. You can get a two-bedroom condo in a pretty good neighborhood for like $750k. House price affordability guidelines are "3-5x pre-tax annual income", so even in SF, the paradigmatic housing-crisis city, you could afford a $1.2M house on $250k or a $750k condo on $150k. All of this is just setting aside the question of "if you can just afford to buy a house in one of the most expensive places in the country, does that make you middle class", for which the actual answer is no. But by absolutely no sane metric is $500k/yr "squarely middle class".
- dheera 3y ago
  > "30% of your pre-tax income or less" That makes sense in a world where taxes are 15%. But in a world where taxes are close to 50%, you probably want to be thinking about 30% of POST-tax income, not pre-tax. If you rented at 30% of pre-tax, take away 45% for taxes, you have only 25% left. There's no way you'll live on 25% AND have room for savings for purchasing housing. > House price affordability guidelines are "3-5x pre-tax annual income" Uh, no, I'd say 3-5X post-tax post-food post-rent post-everything-else. That would mean you could afford a house in 3-5 years. Seriously, I live here and almost nobody with a total household income of less than 600-800K actually owns a home here.