3 ms·

I was with you until you mentioned unions. tech is fundamentally incompatible with unions for several reasons: 1. it will drive down the wages and give powe

by slt2021 3y ago

I was with you until you mentioned unions. tech is fundamentally incompatible with unions for several reasons: 1. it will drive down the wages and give power to just another bureacracy 2. Union participation does not differentiate between highly skilled (and sought after) tech worker, from mediocre tech worker who gets by using copilot and chatgpt 3. I dont need union to negotiate with company on my behalf - I can negotiate by myself just fine 4. If startup goes bust - I can easily find a job at another startup, probably will even get a pay raise - just because my skills are highly sought after and in demand. There is literally zero upside for me that union can do 5. I dont want to share my specialist employee's power with faceless union burearacy I know what it means to be a union worker - and trust me, it will never gonna work in software engineering

sangnoir 3y ago
Here's a point by point rebuttal: 1. Hollywood unions disprove this 2. Hollywood unions (SAG, DGA) disprove this 3. Unions don't mean you can no longer negotiate. DiCaprio still does 4. One upside: Unions represent members who are no longer able to work 5. Hollywood unions have some pretty specialized folk and it works well for them As an individual - you only bargaining chip is your ability to do work. If you lose capacity to work - temporarily or otherwise - you lose the ability to negotiate. Unions don't suffer from that weakness. The things you can negotiate for are capped at the value of your work. You can't forbid your employer from replacing you/your teammates with AI foe instance, but unions can, because the collective value of their output is beyond what the employers may gain from ML models. Not so on the individual level.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  SAG really is a gold-standard union. Critically, it has a monopoly to multiple buyers of its talent. (Sort of like the UAW.) Single-employer unions are more constrained.
- slt2021 3y ago
  You skipped the downsides of hollywood unionization: Cost of hiring increases and there are fewer gigs around. Unionisation adds nontrivial transaction costs, so there will be fewer opportunities for new entrants, and fierce competition among existing workers for shrinking number of gigs. For example look at how women actors get their cast roles with harvey weinstein studio - did union protect them from sexual predators? Look at average unionized actor - very few are making big bucks, most are just surviving and have other day jobs. UAW workers are still at the mercy of their employers, and are only dragging their companies down, while non-unionized automakers are taking over market share. I am totally fine that my bargaining chip is my ability to work - it is the only austainable way. Otherwise there will be a lot of useless dead weights who dont contribute to the topline, and leech off of bottomline. (There is already unemployment for this use case). Look at NYC MTA - all unionized and completely inefficient, unionisation can only work in monopoly situation. Tech in the other hand is high growth particularly because all monopolies are being attacked by more flexible and lean startups. Hollywood is not growing at all, while big tech is carrying the whole world
  - nl 3y ago
    > Hollywood is not growing at all Well this certainly isn't true. Hollywood has grown hugely over the last 20 years (with a massive crash during COVID): https://www.statista.com/statistics/271856/global-box-office-revenue/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/271856/global-box-office... It looks like it is on track to recover completely this year: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/ https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/
    - slt2021 3y ago
      you are looking at the wrong stuff, box office revenues go to Motion Picture companies and Hollywood fat cats like harvey weinstein. just look at labor data: it is not pretty. $28/hr mean pay in Hollywood! Much less in other areas. There is a reason why successful actors prefer to become producers/directors: because it pays better to be your own boss, rather than be at a mercy of union. and you don't have to engage in high end prostituion and literally sell your ass to people like Weinstein and Epstein, just to get a role at a high profile movie. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes272011.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes272011.htm
idiotsecant 3y ago
You're taking a remarkably short sighted position here. Blacksmiths and cobblers were once highly in demand workers as well. Do you really think writing code is such a special beautiful skill that it's immune to the same forces of automation? Software development is a trade skill, like any other. We're in a very brief window of time where it's a very lucrative skill to have. Don't expect that to last forever. When that stops being the case you'll want something between you and the harder facts of life that you might have had the privilege of ignoring for a while. There's a reason people bled and died to make these organizations. The moment it's possible the capital class will grind you into a fine paste and sell you in tubes to make a few extra percent on the quarterly financials.
- slt2021 3y ago
  I am not at the mercy of my employer or capitalist class for that matter. And I will be the first one to automate my job and reap the benefits of automation myself. This is the way of life - if you cannot adapt - those more flexible, more adaptable, smarter, younger, hungrier - will eat your lunch. There is no way any tech union can enforce monopoly, because there will always be new entrants ( ew grads) and offshore workers and immigrants willing to take the job, if union workers decide to strike. In fact, I will be the first one to create outsourcing and offshoring consulting company to help companies fight unionisation. This is the way of capitalism, the way of life. Smarter, faster, nimbler will get larger piece of the pie. If union is willing to get $xxx mln in labor costs from a company, I will happily help this company fight unionisation for a fraction of that - to drive unions out of business while pocketing the profits by myself
  - idiotsecant 3y ago
    I hate to break it to you but if your job is automatable it won't be you reaping the benefits, it will be the people who have the most capital to deploy automating. That ain't you buddy, sorry. Your world view is basically peak HN techbro-iterianisim. I hope you never get the opportunity to experience exactly how wrong you are.
    - 3y ago

sangnoir 3y ago

Here's a point by point rebuttal: 1. Hollywood unions disprove this 2. Hollywood unions (SAG, DGA) disprove this 3. Unions don't mean you can no longer negotiate. DiCaprio still does 4. One upside: Unions represent members who are no longer able to work 5. Hollywood unions have some pretty specialized folk and it works well for them As an individual - you only bargaining chip is your ability to do work. If you lose capacity to work - temporarily or otherwise - you lose the ability to negotiate. Unions don't suffer from that weakness. The things you can negotiate for are capped at the value of your work. You can't forbid your employer from replacing you/your teammates with AI foe instance, but unions can, because the collective value of their output is beyond what the employers may gain from ML models. Not so on the individual level.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
SAG really is a gold-standard union. Critically, it has a monopoly to multiple buyers of its talent. (Sort of like the UAW.) Single-employer unions are more constrained.
slt2021 3y ago
You skipped the downsides of hollywood unionization: Cost of hiring increases and there are fewer gigs around. Unionisation adds nontrivial transaction costs, so there will be fewer opportunities for new entrants, and fierce competition among existing workers for shrinking number of gigs. For example look at how women actors get their cast roles with harvey weinstein studio - did union protect them from sexual predators? Look at average unionized actor - very few are making big bucks, most are just surviving and have other day jobs. UAW workers are still at the mercy of their employers, and are only dragging their companies down, while non-unionized automakers are taking over market share. I am totally fine that my bargaining chip is my ability to work - it is the only austainable way. Otherwise there will be a lot of useless dead weights who dont contribute to the topline, and leech off of bottomline. (There is already unemployment for this use case). Look at NYC MTA - all unionized and completely inefficient, unionisation can only work in monopoly situation. Tech in the other hand is high growth particularly because all monopolies are being attacked by more flexible and lean startups. Hollywood is not growing at all, while big tech is carrying the whole world
- nl 3y ago
  > Hollywood is not growing at all Well this certainly isn't true. Hollywood has grown hugely over the last 20 years (with a massive crash during COVID): https://www.statista.com/statistics/271856/global-box-office-revenue/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/271856/global-box-office... It looks like it is on track to recover completely this year: https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/ https://www.boxofficemojo.com/year/
  - slt2021 3y ago
    you are looking at the wrong stuff, box office revenues go to Motion Picture companies and Hollywood fat cats like harvey weinstein. just look at labor data: it is not pretty. $28/hr mean pay in Hollywood! Much less in other areas. There is a reason why successful actors prefer to become producers/directors: because it pays better to be your own boss, rather than be at a mercy of union. and you don't have to engage in high end prostituion and literally sell your ass to people like Weinstein and Epstein, just to get a role at a high profile movie. https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes272011.htm https://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes272011.htm

idiotsecant 3y ago

You're taking a remarkably short sighted position here. Blacksmiths and cobblers were once highly in demand workers as well. Do you really think writing code is such a special beautiful skill that it's immune to the same forces of automation? Software development is a trade skill, like any other. We're in a very brief window of time where it's a very lucrative skill to have. Don't expect that to last forever. When that stops being the case you'll want something between you and the harder facts of life that you might have had the privilege of ignoring for a while. There's a reason people bled and died to make these organizations. The moment it's possible the capital class will grind you into a fine paste and sell you in tubes to make a few extra percent on the quarterly financials.

slt2021 3y ago
I am not at the mercy of my employer or capitalist class for that matter. And I will be the first one to automate my job and reap the benefits of automation myself. This is the way of life - if you cannot adapt - those more flexible, more adaptable, smarter, younger, hungrier - will eat your lunch. There is no way any tech union can enforce monopoly, because there will always be new entrants ( ew grads) and offshore workers and immigrants willing to take the job, if union workers decide to strike. In fact, I will be the first one to create outsourcing and offshoring consulting company to help companies fight unionisation. This is the way of capitalism, the way of life. Smarter, faster, nimbler will get larger piece of the pie. If union is willing to get $xxx mln in labor costs from a company, I will happily help this company fight unionisation for a fraction of that - to drive unions out of business while pocketing the profits by myself
- idiotsecant 3y ago
  I hate to break it to you but if your job is automatable it won't be you reaping the benefits, it will be the people who have the most capital to deploy automating. That ain't you buddy, sorry. Your world view is basically peak HN techbro-iterianisim. I hope you never get the opportunity to experience exactly how wrong you are.
  - 3y ago