4 ms·

It's sort of dismaying that SwiftUI is regarded as a superior native choice as opposed to second-citizen cross-platform frameworks, then see examples like the m

It's sort of dismaying that SwiftUI is regarded as a superior native choice as opposed to second-citizen cross-platform frameworks, then see examples like the macOS System Settings app. Though perhaps that is more of a case of poorly-executed Catalyst iOS to macOS porting, and poor design, than a lack of "nativeness" with SwiftUI. The framework lacking consideration for navigation until recently shows that its rollout has been half-baked, though.

superb_dev 3y ago
I agree that navigation in a pure SwiftUI app is annoying, but I don't think that was short sided. It's just iterative design. At the start SwiftUI was something you could add to an existing UI/AppKit project, so individual parts could be rewritten. They've been building on top of that since. Refining the api and slowly letting you write more and more with just SwiftUI
- plagiarist 3y ago
  The implementation seems to encourage that "leaf" views have to be aware of parent views, or what context they're in. I used to work with a guy who'd always say, "maybe I'm holding it wrong," that's how I feel about the navigation in SwiftUI. Maybe I need to see a clean example to get it.
jwells89 3y ago
The problems with the macOS settings app have just as much or more to do with its design as they do with SwiftUI. If they had instead built the redesign with AppKit it’d feel a bit smoother in some areas but would be just as flawed. Just making it more traditionally Mac-like would go a long way.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  I've heard a lot of disgruntlement from macOS developers about SwiftUI. I wonder if the framework has an inherent bias for iOS and maybe iPadOS? Again, it's crazy that after years of disparagement of kludgy cross-platform frameworks (albeit more from the fans than the company itself), Apple basically went ahead and built their own, with fewer supported frameworks than the third-party alternatives.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    SwiftUI definitely has an iOS/mobile bent to it, no doubt because iOS is its flagship platform. macOS no longer has the corporate gravity that it enjoyed prior to the iPhone, when AppKit received most of its post-NeXT development. This problem isn’t exclusive to SwiftUI though, WinUI/Windows App SDK is also mobile-flavored likely due to its UWP heritage, lacking basic desktop widgets like a tableview/datagrid.
    - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
      > This problem isn’t exclusive to SwiftUI though, WinUI/Windows App SDK is also mobile-flavored likely due to its UWP heritage, lacking basic desktop widgets like a tableview/datagrid. Hah, it's far worse than that - Microsoft has let their desktop DX story stagnate for 15 years now (WPF was launched in 2006), since then Microsoft hasn't launched any new desktop-first UI framework for Windows, nor offered more than token improvements to User32, CommonControls, and WinForms since then. It's no lie that everything MS has done in the UI-framework space since Windows 7 in 2009 has been a waste of time and money. It started-off with the "Metro" Windows Phone reboot, then the shoehorning of that into Windows 8, and the various XAML-derived frameworks since then - and none of them have attempted to tackle the very fundamental flaws (declarative data-binding doesn't scale, INotifyPropertyChanged breaks causality tracking and cannot be unit-tested, mutable ViewModels were carved by Lucifer himself!) - and as you said, no care or attention is paid to applications needing high information-density display. ---- ...so while all this is going on, the Office org came up with its own in-house GPU-accelerated UI introduced in Office 2013 which we can all agree is slow, bloated, glitchy (y'ever used Excel with a 500Hz mouse?), but also proprietary and undocumented, so the wider Windows ecosystem can't benefit from the Office org's framework which would have otherwise (almost) neatly filled the gaps left-behind by the Windows org. I just want Satya to hire me for the job-title of "VP of Consistent User-Experience" and I'd make it a top-priority that Windows itself comes with a reusable spreadsheet+datagrid component that all applications can use - and it wouldn't cost the company more than a year and a few million dollars - but save billions by avoiding lost developer confidence - and would serve to remind everyone that native desktop UX can always be better than browser-based UX. --- Sorry, am ranting.
saagarjha 3y ago
Settings is not a Catalyst app; it’s a poorly designed full rewrite.
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  Well that’s just inexcusable.

superb_dev 3y ago

I agree that navigation in a pure SwiftUI app is annoying, but I don't think that was short sided. It's just iterative design. At the start SwiftUI was something you could add to an existing UI/AppKit project, so individual parts could be rewritten. They've been building on top of that since. Refining the api and slowly letting you write more and more with just SwiftUI

plagiarist 3y ago
The implementation seems to encourage that "leaf" views have to be aware of parent views, or what context they're in. I used to work with a guy who'd always say, "maybe I'm holding it wrong," that's how I feel about the navigation in SwiftUI. Maybe I need to see a clean example to get it.

jwells89 3y ago

The problems with the macOS settings app have just as much or more to do with its design as they do with SwiftUI. If they had instead built the redesign with AppKit it’d feel a bit smoother in some areas but would be just as flawed. Just making it more traditionally Mac-like would go a long way.

Apocryphon 3y ago
I've heard a lot of disgruntlement from macOS developers about SwiftUI. I wonder if the framework has an inherent bias for iOS and maybe iPadOS? Again, it's crazy that after years of disparagement of kludgy cross-platform frameworks (albeit more from the fans than the company itself), Apple basically went ahead and built their own, with fewer supported frameworks than the third-party alternatives.
- jwells89 3y ago
  SwiftUI definitely has an iOS/mobile bent to it, no doubt because iOS is its flagship platform. macOS no longer has the corporate gravity that it enjoyed prior to the iPhone, when AppKit received most of its post-NeXT development. This problem isn’t exclusive to SwiftUI though, WinUI/Windows App SDK is also mobile-flavored likely due to its UWP heritage, lacking basic desktop widgets like a tableview/datagrid.
  - DaiPlusPlus 3y ago
    > This problem isn’t exclusive to SwiftUI though, WinUI/Windows App SDK is also mobile-flavored likely due to its UWP heritage, lacking basic desktop widgets like a tableview/datagrid. Hah, it's far worse than that - Microsoft has let their desktop DX story stagnate for 15 years now (WPF was launched in 2006), since then Microsoft hasn't launched any new desktop-first UI framework for Windows, nor offered more than token improvements to User32, CommonControls, and WinForms since then. It's no lie that everything MS has done in the UI-framework space since Windows 7 in 2009 has been a waste of time and money. It started-off with the "Metro" Windows Phone reboot, then the shoehorning of that into Windows 8, and the various XAML-derived frameworks since then - and none of them have attempted to tackle the very fundamental flaws (declarative data-binding doesn't scale, INotifyPropertyChanged breaks causality tracking and cannot be unit-tested, mutable ViewModels were carved by Lucifer himself!) - and as you said, no care or attention is paid to applications needing high information-density display. ---- ...so while all this is going on, the Office org came up with its own in-house GPU-accelerated UI introduced in Office 2013 which we can all agree is slow, bloated, glitchy (y'ever used Excel with a 500Hz mouse?), but also proprietary and undocumented, so the wider Windows ecosystem can't benefit from the Office org's framework which would have otherwise (almost) neatly filled the gaps left-behind by the Windows org. I just want Satya to hire me for the job-title of "VP of Consistent User-Experience" and I'd make it a top-priority that Windows itself comes with a reusable spreadsheet+datagrid component that all applications can use - and it wouldn't cost the company more than a year and a few million dollars - but save billions by avoiding lost developer confidence - and would serve to remind everyone that native desktop UX can always be better than browser-based UX. --- Sorry, am ranting.

saagarjha 3y ago

Settings is not a Catalyst app; it’s a poorly designed full rewrite.

Apocryphon 3y ago
Well that’s just inexcusable.