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> You don't know it's doomed. It's swell when people gamble with employees well-being on the miniscule odds of a miracle. And even better idea is to offer seve

> You don't know it's doomed. It's swell when people gamble with employees well-being on the miniscule odds of a miracle. And even better idea is to offer severance, and those employees with the same appetite for risk can get additional options from the folks who leave. That'd be a win/win, except for the leadership who would rather gamble using other peoples chips but keep most of the winnings. > Everyone who lost their jobs at Convoy is eligible for unemployment Unemployment benefits don't come anywhere close to tech salaries! They take time to process. > Perhaps the discussion should be around improving this benefit for everyone? We can multitask. What is in my power to control is to avoid working with anyone associated with this decision and encourage everyone else to do the same - board-members and the entire C-Suite. We have a - let's call it poor culture fit

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> It's swell when people gamble with employees well-being on the miniscule odds of a miracle You don't know the odds ex ante! Again, they would have been roundly criticized if they'd prioritized severance (which means more for the highly paid) and preferred stockholders over their rank-and-file common holders. > Unemployment benefits don't come anywhere close to tech salaries! They take time to process You're arguing for special treatment of well-paid tech workers over e.g. truck drivers [1]. > What is in my power to control is to avoid working with anyone associated with this decision and encourage everyone else to do the same The solution is to not work for a start-up. That, or gain empathy for the tens of millions of Americans who work for a restaurant or with variable hours or on contracts that provide them with zero heads up when business conditions change or their employer goes under. [1] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/08/09/51c3-a09.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/08/09/51c3-a09.html
- sangnoir 3y ago
  > You don't know the odds ex ante! No, you can simply choose your cut off time for a hail-mary at 2 months of runway, rather than 0 months of runway. Leaders don't have to rundown the clock (and bank balance) to 0 - they may choose to, like they did in this instance. > You're arguing for special treatment of well-paid tech workers over e.g. truck drivers Again, no. I'm arguing against your suggestion that the Convoy folks without severance are going to be alright because they have unemployment. I hope none of them are on H-1B visas as they just lost all control to when their clock starts ticking. > The solution is to not work for a start-up This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of startups led by people who do right by their employees; I have worked with some before of them, and I will not hesitate to work with them again in the future because I trust them not to screw me over like this.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > you simply choosing your cut off time for a hail-mary at 2 months of runway I'm saying it isn't that simple to project runway in some businesses. > arguing against your suggestion that the employees without severance are going to be alright because they have severance Sorry, we agree on this. This will suck for everyone involved. If it was preventable, that's on management. > plenty if startups led by people who do right by their employees When push comes to shove, constraints apply. Shutting down a start-up with cash in the bank isn't something that happens without a fight. There will be lawyers, possibly lawsuits, and delays. Convoy had $100+ million in debt; the employees would have had to fight claims of wrongful conveyance. Put another another way: the CEO paid employees another few months' salary instead of handing that cash to its lenders.
- ditonal 3y ago
  So tired of companies that raise hundreds of millions from some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world trying to pull the “we’re a startup” card. You’re not two dudes eating ramen in a garage and you don’t get to use that image to excuse your shitty behavior. Also tired of the “other people in poverty are exploited even worse! You asking for basic labor protections shows your lack of empathy for them!” I’m seriously having a hard time imagining any of this was written in good faith. The real solution is, and always will be, collective bargaining. These VCs aren’t going to make sure you have healthcare. They could give it to you directly, or they could use their wealth and power to make sure the government gives it to you. People ask “what can a union do? My office already has free kombucha”. Imagine if all the SWEs at all these VCs backed companies went on strike unless the laid off Convoy employees got six months of healthcare (it would have been in the initial employment contract). The money for this stuff would magically materialize. It doesn’t materialize because there’s no organization to advocate for it, it’s that simple.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > tired of companies that raise hundreds of millions from some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world trying to pull the “we’re a startup” card But they are one! If those wealthy people were getting perks in this failure, the way e.g. workers at Good got screwed, I'd agree with you. But if you're running with massive fixed costs and volatile revenue, knowing whether you're weeks or months from shutdown is difficult. And again, people are assuming if he shut down six months ago everyone could have gotten severance. Convoy is $100+ million in debt. Wages are privileged; new severance obligations are not. > real solution is, and always will be, collective bargaining The closer solution is civic participation. How many people in Silicon Valley have written to their state elected to raise unemployment benefits? (Note: I'm not saying anyone deserves what's happening. But union participation in America is stubborn and dropping. We need another drum to beat.)
  - cma 3y ago
    > Imagine if all the SWEs at all these VCs backed companies went on strike unless the laid off Convoy employees got six months of healthcare (it would have been in the initial employment contract). Congress made secondary strikes illegal a long time ago. Maybe it would still be OK since that wouldn't technically be cross-industry; I'm not sure.
- fsckboy 3y ago
  >millions of Americans who work for a restaurant or with variable hours or on contracts that provide them with zero heads up when business conditions change wouldn't you consider your statement itself to be a giant heads up, right now? Heads up! save some money, don't spend everything you earn. And don't tell me you didn't get a heads up.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > wouldn't you consider your statement itself to be a giant heads up, right now No, I'm saying it's fucked this is the status quo across the country. Making severance--particularly in cases of business failure--the private obligation of the employer is recapitulating employer-funded healthcare. (That said, yes. If you work at a start-up you should maintain a cash cushion if possible. That, and check your contract's severance terms and ask for them to be proper before the company enters shitsville.)
bhhaskin 3y ago
That is the risk of working at a startup as an employee though. If you aren't willing to take that risk don't work at a startup.
kortilla 3y ago
Don’t join a fucking startup if you can’t handle it shutting down at any given moment. If you want employment stability join a profitable company or the federal government. > That'd be a win/win, except for the leadership who would rather gamble using other peoples chips but keep most of the winnings. It’s a startup! You’re there to try to make the options work out as an employee as well. I would 100% rather ride to the end with any chance that it will take off. They failed to get a loan in time, it’s not like they knew it was a fantasy that could never work out. They had a viable business and got caught in counter-party risk.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> It's swell when people gamble with employees well-being on the miniscule odds of a miracle You don't know the odds ex ante! Again, they would have been roundly criticized if they'd prioritized severance (which means more for the highly paid) and preferred stockholders over their rank-and-file common holders. > Unemployment benefits don't come anywhere close to tech salaries! They take time to process You're arguing for special treatment of well-paid tech workers over e.g. truck drivers [1]. > What is in my power to control is to avoid working with anyone associated with this decision and encourage everyone else to do the same The solution is to not work for a start-up. That, or gain empathy for the tens of millions of Americans who work for a restaurant or with variable hours or on contracts that provide them with zero heads up when business conditions change or their employer goes under. [1] https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/08/09/51c3-a09.html https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/08/09/51c3-a09.html

sangnoir 3y ago
> You don't know the odds ex ante! No, you can simply choose your cut off time for a hail-mary at 2 months of runway, rather than 0 months of runway. Leaders don't have to rundown the clock (and bank balance) to 0 - they may choose to, like they did in this instance. > You're arguing for special treatment of well-paid tech workers over e.g. truck drivers Again, no. I'm arguing against your suggestion that the Convoy folks without severance are going to be alright because they have unemployment. I hope none of them are on H-1B visas as they just lost all control to when their clock starts ticking. > The solution is to not work for a start-up This is a false dichotomy. There are plenty of startups led by people who do right by their employees; I have worked with some before of them, and I will not hesitate to work with them again in the future because I trust them not to screw me over like this.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > you simply choosing your cut off time for a hail-mary at 2 months of runway I'm saying it isn't that simple to project runway in some businesses. > arguing against your suggestion that the employees without severance are going to be alright because they have severance Sorry, we agree on this. This will suck for everyone involved. If it was preventable, that's on management. > plenty if startups led by people who do right by their employees When push comes to shove, constraints apply. Shutting down a start-up with cash in the bank isn't something that happens without a fight. There will be lawyers, possibly lawsuits, and delays. Convoy had $100+ million in debt; the employees would have had to fight claims of wrongful conveyance. Put another another way: the CEO paid employees another few months' salary instead of handing that cash to its lenders.
ditonal 3y ago
So tired of companies that raise hundreds of millions from some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world trying to pull the “we’re a startup” card. You’re not two dudes eating ramen in a garage and you don’t get to use that image to excuse your shitty behavior. Also tired of the “other people in poverty are exploited even worse! You asking for basic labor protections shows your lack of empathy for them!” I’m seriously having a hard time imagining any of this was written in good faith. The real solution is, and always will be, collective bargaining. These VCs aren’t going to make sure you have healthcare. They could give it to you directly, or they could use their wealth and power to make sure the government gives it to you. People ask “what can a union do? My office already has free kombucha”. Imagine if all the SWEs at all these VCs backed companies went on strike unless the laid off Convoy employees got six months of healthcare (it would have been in the initial employment contract). The money for this stuff would magically materialize. It doesn’t materialize because there’s no organization to advocate for it, it’s that simple.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > tired of companies that raise hundreds of millions from some of the wealthiest and most powerful people in the world trying to pull the “we’re a startup” card But they are one! If those wealthy people were getting perks in this failure, the way e.g. workers at Good got screwed, I'd agree with you. But if you're running with massive fixed costs and volatile revenue, knowing whether you're weeks or months from shutdown is difficult. And again, people are assuming if he shut down six months ago everyone could have gotten severance. Convoy is $100+ million in debt. Wages are privileged; new severance obligations are not. > real solution is, and always will be, collective bargaining The closer solution is civic participation. How many people in Silicon Valley have written to their state elected to raise unemployment benefits? (Note: I'm not saying anyone deserves what's happening. But union participation in America is stubborn and dropping. We need another drum to beat.)
- cma 3y ago
  > Imagine if all the SWEs at all these VCs backed companies went on strike unless the laid off Convoy employees got six months of healthcare (it would have been in the initial employment contract). Congress made secondary strikes illegal a long time ago. Maybe it would still be OK since that wouldn't technically be cross-industry; I'm not sure.
fsckboy 3y ago
>millions of Americans who work for a restaurant or with variable hours or on contracts that provide them with zero heads up when business conditions change wouldn't you consider your statement itself to be a giant heads up, right now? Heads up! save some money, don't spend everything you earn. And don't tell me you didn't get a heads up.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > wouldn't you consider your statement itself to be a giant heads up, right now No, I'm saying it's fucked this is the status quo across the country. Making severance--particularly in cases of business failure--the private obligation of the employer is recapitulating employer-funded healthcare. (That said, yes. If you work at a start-up you should maintain a cash cushion if possible. That, and check your contract's severance terms and ask for them to be proper before the company enters shitsville.)

bhhaskin 3y ago

That is the risk of working at a startup as an employee though. If you aren't willing to take that risk don't work at a startup.

kortilla 3y ago

Don’t join a fucking startup if you can’t handle it shutting down at any given moment. If you want employment stability join a profitable company or the federal government. > That'd be a win/win, except for the leadership who would rather gamble using other peoples chips but keep most of the winnings. It’s a startup! You’re there to try to make the options work out as an employee as well. I would 100% rather ride to the end with any chance that it will take off. They failed to get a loan in time, it’s not like they knew it was a fantasy that could never work out. They had a viable business and got caught in counter-party risk.