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Learning to program is all about learning mental abstractions. A beginner will have no conceptualization of what a web application can or should do. Where an ex

by kaiuhl 15y ago

Learning to program is all about learning mental abstractions. A beginner will have no conceptualization of what a web application can or should do. Where an experienced web programmer from any language will hear requirements and immediately (and almost unconsciously) start building up a mental model of the problem domain, the beginner will still be struggling with how the system itself works. That will be true in any web development framework, because there’s simply no way for any framework to think through the problem for you. This.

swombat 15y ago
This will probably get downvoted into oblivion (fair enough since it's a thoroughly unconstructive comment) but I'm really developing a pet peeve against comments that basically consist just of the word "This." or start with "This." and follow it with some tame form of agreement. I find it about 2.44 times as annoying as someone commenting "upvoted". I now reflexively downvote any comment starting with "This.". I know I have no power to alter such a strong internet meme, but I thought I'd mention it to get it off my chest. Sorry for wasting your time with this post.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- TheCapn 15y ago
  Funny. "This will probably get downvoted into oblivion" is my pet peeve. There's just something that irks me about a person who is putting up their opinion voluntarily seemingly knowing that it will not be reciprocated by others but provide a pretext hoping to fish guilt from others who may disagree. If you have an opinion stand behind it; take whatever berating you're about to receive in full confidence because what really matters if the community as a whole doesn't share the same outlook?
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - erikpukinskis 15y ago
    I don't think "This will probably get downvoted" is necessarily a fish for guilt. To me, what it signals is that the commenter is aware of the unpopularity of the idea. They've given it a second consideration and still believe in it. By saying so, they're asking the reader to also give it a second consideration. It's saying "this is more than a kneejerk reaction for me, please respond with more than a kneejerk reaction".
- aquateen 15y ago
  Whenever I see "This", I picture a caveman pointing and barking.
toast76 15y ago
There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about what "beginner" means for Rails. I've been a .NET developer for over 10 years. I'm a Rails "beginner". I'd say I'm comfortable with web technology, and yet Rails was an absolute nightmare for me to get started with. If the Rails community wants people like me to stop doing what they were doing and use Rails instead, it MUST be easier to get started with.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  I've observed that veterans in tool A frequently have huge problems when they try to get around the very different tool B. This, and not Rails, could be the cause of the problems you are experiencing. Every time I have to maintain a Java web app, for instance, I suffer. My experience with Django and Plone, more often than not, makes everything much more painful than it would be were I more comfortable with, say, ASP.NET.
  - mattbriggs 15y ago
    I think the biggest thing is if that learning a complex framework is hard enough, but people often just assume that their expertise in a c-like static language is immediately transferable to anything else. If you have no experience in a dynamic or functional language and want to pick something up in that area, the first thing you have to learn is how people approach problems in that different paradigm, followed by gaining a level of competence with the syntax/libraries before they can even start learning the framework.
    - rbanffy 15y ago
      I think it's actually worse than that - there's a lot to unlearn in order to be effective with tools like Rails. It's like approaching Smalltalk and asking where's the source code.
- gnaritas 15y ago
  > I've been a .NET developer for over 10 years. Me too, and I just started using Rails in the last few weeks and am finding it a joy to work with. Way better than .Net. How exactly is it a nightmare?
xyzzyb 15y ago
I, for one, am glad that you appreciated and highlighted one of the key portions of my post. I spent a lot of time on it (relative to the rest of the post) to try and convey the point concisely.

by kaiuhl 15y ago

swombat 15y ago

This will probably get downvoted into oblivion (fair enough since it's a thoroughly unconstructive comment) but I'm really developing a pet peeve against comments that basically consist just of the word "This." or start with "This." and follow it with some tame form of agreement. I find it about 2.44 times as annoying as someone commenting "upvoted". I now reflexively downvote any comment starting with "This.". I know I have no power to alter such a strong internet meme, but I thought I'd mention it to get it off my chest. Sorry for wasting your time with this post.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
TheCapn 15y ago
Funny. "This will probably get downvoted into oblivion" is my pet peeve. There's just something that irks me about a person who is putting up their opinion voluntarily seemingly knowing that it will not be reciprocated by others but provide a pretext hoping to fish guilt from others who may disagree. If you have an opinion stand behind it; take whatever berating you're about to receive in full confidence because what really matters if the community as a whole doesn't share the same outlook?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- erikpukinskis 15y ago
  I don't think "This will probably get downvoted" is necessarily a fish for guilt. To me, what it signals is that the commenter is aware of the unpopularity of the idea. They've given it a second consideration and still believe in it. By saying so, they're asking the reader to also give it a second consideration. It's saying "this is more than a kneejerk reaction for me, please respond with more than a kneejerk reaction".
aquateen 15y ago
Whenever I see "This", I picture a caveman pointing and barking.

toast76 15y ago

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about what "beginner" means for Rails. I've been a .NET developer for over 10 years. I'm a Rails "beginner". I'd say I'm comfortable with web technology, and yet Rails was an absolute nightmare for me to get started with. If the Rails community wants people like me to stop doing what they were doing and use Rails instead, it MUST be easier to get started with.

rbanffy 15y ago
I've observed that veterans in tool A frequently have huge problems when they try to get around the very different tool B. This, and not Rails, could be the cause of the problems you are experiencing. Every time I have to maintain a Java web app, for instance, I suffer. My experience with Django and Plone, more often than not, makes everything much more painful than it would be were I more comfortable with, say, ASP.NET.
- mattbriggs 15y ago
  I think the biggest thing is if that learning a complex framework is hard enough, but people often just assume that their expertise in a c-like static language is immediately transferable to anything else. If you have no experience in a dynamic or functional language and want to pick something up in that area, the first thing you have to learn is how people approach problems in that different paradigm, followed by gaining a level of competence with the syntax/libraries before they can even start learning the framework.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    I think it's actually worse than that - there's a lot to unlearn in order to be effective with tools like Rails. It's like approaching Smalltalk and asking where's the source code.
gnaritas 15y ago
> I've been a .NET developer for over 10 years. Me too, and I just started using Rails in the last few weeks and am finding it a joy to work with. Way better than .Net. How exactly is it a nightmare?

xyzzyb 15y ago

I, for one, am glad that you appreciated and highlighted one of the key portions of my post. I spent a lot of time on it (relative to the rest of the post) to try and convey the point concisely.