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Signal is finally copying what Telegram has implemented since long ago? Do people in the West simply do not care about hiding their number (judging by WhatsApp

Signal is finally copying what Telegram has implemented since long ago? Do people in the West simply do not care about hiding their number (judging by WhatsApp and Signal)?

andy81 3y ago
The mobile number requirement was always a feature of signal. The friction is slight for users, but higher for scammers that might go through thousands of accounts. Telegram is too easy to sign up, so it's mostly scams.
- slig 3y ago
  AFAIK, Telegram always had the mobile phone number requirement so, no, the friction to sign up is the same.
- codedokode 3y ago
  I meant that Telegram doesn't display user's phone number and doesn't require sharing a number to add person to contacts. But with WhatsApp and Signal you have to disclose your number in order to talk to someone.
- sabellito 3y ago
  Never had any scam messages on telegram, but get ~1 per month on whatsapp.
tech_ken 3y ago
Never really understood the privacy argument for hiding (or disconnecting) your phone number in a User-User "texting" type application. I suppose if Signal were linking my identity across a bunch of platforms I'd be worried, but their privacy policy is pretty aggressive so I'm not really worried about that. Indeed the additional friction for scammers is a benefit to me. Telegram is a morass of dodgy group chats and spam, Signal is miles better for the things I value in a messaging service (encrypted texting and group chatting with people I already know in the real world).
- rt4mn 3y ago
  For a lot of people, signal is not simply a User-User "texting" type application, but much more akin to slack or discord or matrix. Many, Many reporters put their signal number in twitter bio seeking tips. Many activists (including me) use signal group chats to organize volenteers and staff, and publicly share room links. In other words, we have to either share our number publicly or buy a burner phone number if we want people to interact with us on signal.
  - ColoursofOSINT 3y ago
    Absolutely, not to mention if you ever switch numbers you have to change the signal information. For me, its fine for verification, but I want an identifier I ever have to change.
  - tech_ken 3y ago
    Makes sense, definitely if anonymity from conversation partners is desired then I can see how Signal's model falls short of your needs. I've also used Signal in the past for activist group chats, but in those cases my primary risk vector has been having messages read by someone outside of the group, people typically join those after being referred by someone they met face-to-face. I suppose there's always the risk of a wrecker slipping in, and having more layers of anonymity could reduce that downside risk. Hopefully this username approach is able to address your needs better! I really like the tool so would be stoked to see it cover additional use cases.
    - codedokode 3y ago
      This is still bad, as any of them sees all the phones of members of the group. In Telegram you can hide your number.
      - tech_ken 3y ago
        Presumably if they introduced usernames they would also allow you to hide your number in a chat? edit: I think I misunderstood you. Yes, it is the case that everyone in the chat has access to everyone else's ID, however in my use-cases group members have already been vetted before joining the group, I don't participate in publicly accessible Signal chats or use it to communicate with true strangers.
Krasnol 3y ago
Bringing up Telegram in this context makes it quite funny, since Telegram users seem not to care about the safety of the contents of their chats at all in this shady black box. Phone numbers are a quite ridiculously small problem compared to that.
- wkat4242 3y ago
  I use telegram mostly for chats to public groups that anyone can join anyway. So the end to end point is kinda moot. Same with IRC for example. This is why nobody complains about it not having that.
- codedokode 3y ago
  No. If you join a public chat in Telegram you don't have to share your phone number with other members so you don't have to be afraid that they will find you in real life. You can write anything you want. But with WhatsApp or Signal you have to share a phone number with everyone which means they can easily find who you are and where you live (this data is cheaply sold on black market).
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    Your group chats go into a black box unencrypted. You don't know what happens to it because it's not E2E. You also gave your phone number to this shady company who runs those servers which keep everything you wrote. Even Whatsapp is better than this. And what is that phone number fetish? It's not like it is some magic identifier. There are bots out there testing every number out there and sending you SNS spam. Your phone number is worthless. As far as I remember, you can still find people on Telegram by searching for phone numbers. Isn't there even an automatic discovery feature? The Telegram salt around those announcements seems like the final cry of Telegram fans to me because after that, there is absolutely nothing which would even remotely paint Telegram as a safe or secure messenger. Especially because everybody know why you are on Telegram. It's a different use case. I talk on Signal to people I know personally. They already have my number. People I know go on Telegram for porn and piracy over here. They still have Whatsapp or Signal to talk to their friends and family. They actually are ashamed that they have Telegram because everybody here know why they have it ;)
Moldoteck 3y ago
Well, it's different kind of things, on tgram you have usernames but lack privacy bc usual chats most ppl use are not e2ee. On signal you have nr as piblic info but all messages are e2ee. Also signal's backup& sync mechanism is very bad. Closest app to tgram is Whatsapp, without encryption downside. Next is maybe Element based on matrix protocol with signal type encryption for groups
msh 3y ago
It’s a feature. You get an instant social graph by being able to piggyback on people’s contacts. Also the original purpose of signal was secure sms, so using phone numbers make perfect sense.
- codedokode 3y ago
  I meant in Telegram you don't need to share your phone number with your contants or members of a public chat you've joined. While in WhatsApp or Signal your contacts know your number and can easily find out your identity and where you live if you write something they don't like.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    I use Signal to talk to friends and family. Everyone I message on Signal are people who already know where I live.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tczMUFlmoNk 3y ago
  Signal has an interesting article describing how, while contact discovery allows users to populate an instant social graph, Signal's servers still do not have access to that information, even as they send "so-and-so is now on Signal!" notifications: https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/ https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/ Of course, they have the ability to push a new client that hoovers up whatever they want, especially with their time-bomb policy of preventing old clients from sending messages until they're updated. But I was impressed by the lengths that they go to to build this privacy-preserving contact discovery service. I was especially interested to see their use of remote attestation "for good" and to preserve privacy and freedom, rather than systems like DRM and WEI that seek to compromise those.
tapoxi 3y ago
Why are you comparing Signal to Telegram? Telegram keeps all of your conversations on their servers in plain text, not to mention any other metadata. Signal only keeps your registration time and last login time. Yes it uses your phone number to do this, but they don't have anything else. Not even your contact list or who sent a message, they just know a blob went somewhere.
- senectus1 3y ago
  yeah, I never really understood how people keep putting the two products in the same space. they're really not the same thing.
noman-land 3y ago
Signal started as an e2e replacement for SMS, so it chose phone numbers on purpose to solve the discoverability problem, under the assumption that people will be communicating with all the same people who already have their number. Telegram has always been more social and more for communities or groups of potential strangers. The fact that people complain about Signal doxing you is in some ways a good sign, because it suggests Signal has become so popular and trusted that strangers want to use it to communicate privately. Signal helped pave the way for mainstream society to use communication tools that respect them without being a hacker or messing with a terminal.

Signal is finally copying what Telegram has implemented since long ago? Do people in the West simply do not care about hiding their number (judging by WhatsApp and Signal)?

andy81 3y ago

The mobile number requirement was always a feature of signal. The friction is slight for users, but higher for scammers that might go through thousands of accounts. Telegram is too easy to sign up, so it's mostly scams.

slig 3y ago
AFAIK, Telegram always had the mobile phone number requirement so, no, the friction to sign up is the same.
codedokode 3y ago
I meant that Telegram doesn't display user's phone number and doesn't require sharing a number to add person to contacts. But with WhatsApp and Signal you have to disclose your number in order to talk to someone.
sabellito 3y ago
Never had any scam messages on telegram, but get ~1 per month on whatsapp.

tech_ken 3y ago

Never really understood the privacy argument for hiding (or disconnecting) your phone number in a User-User "texting" type application. I suppose if Signal were linking my identity across a bunch of platforms I'd be worried, but their privacy policy is pretty aggressive so I'm not really worried about that. Indeed the additional friction for scammers is a benefit to me. Telegram is a morass of dodgy group chats and spam, Signal is miles better for the things I value in a messaging service (encrypted texting and group chatting with people I already know in the real world).

rt4mn 3y ago
For a lot of people, signal is not simply a User-User "texting" type application, but much more akin to slack or discord or matrix. Many, Many reporters put their signal number in twitter bio seeking tips. Many activists (including me) use signal group chats to organize volenteers and staff, and publicly share room links. In other words, we have to either share our number publicly or buy a burner phone number if we want people to interact with us on signal.
- ColoursofOSINT 3y ago
  Absolutely, not to mention if you ever switch numbers you have to change the signal information. For me, its fine for verification, but I want an identifier I ever have to change.
- tech_ken 3y ago
  Makes sense, definitely if anonymity from conversation partners is desired then I can see how Signal's model falls short of your needs. I've also used Signal in the past for activist group chats, but in those cases my primary risk vector has been having messages read by someone outside of the group, people typically join those after being referred by someone they met face-to-face. I suppose there's always the risk of a wrecker slipping in, and having more layers of anonymity could reduce that downside risk. Hopefully this username approach is able to address your needs better! I really like the tool so would be stoked to see it cover additional use cases.
  - codedokode 3y ago
    This is still bad, as any of them sees all the phones of members of the group. In Telegram you can hide your number.
    - tech_ken 3y ago
      Presumably if they introduced usernames they would also allow you to hide your number in a chat? edit: I think I misunderstood you. Yes, it is the case that everyone in the chat has access to everyone else's ID, however in my use-cases group members have already been vetted before joining the group, I don't participate in publicly accessible Signal chats or use it to communicate with true strangers.

Krasnol 3y ago

Bringing up Telegram in this context makes it quite funny, since Telegram users seem not to care about the safety of the contents of their chats at all in this shady black box. Phone numbers are a quite ridiculously small problem compared to that.

wkat4242 3y ago
I use telegram mostly for chats to public groups that anyone can join anyway. So the end to end point is kinda moot. Same with IRC for example. This is why nobody complains about it not having that.
codedokode 3y ago
No. If you join a public chat in Telegram you don't have to share your phone number with other members so you don't have to be afraid that they will find you in real life. You can write anything you want. But with WhatsApp or Signal you have to share a phone number with everyone which means they can easily find who you are and where you live (this data is cheaply sold on black market).
- Krasnol 3y ago
  Your group chats go into a black box unencrypted. You don't know what happens to it because it's not E2E. You also gave your phone number to this shady company who runs those servers which keep everything you wrote. Even Whatsapp is better than this. And what is that phone number fetish? It's not like it is some magic identifier. There are bots out there testing every number out there and sending you SNS spam. Your phone number is worthless. As far as I remember, you can still find people on Telegram by searching for phone numbers. Isn't there even an automatic discovery feature? The Telegram salt around those announcements seems like the final cry of Telegram fans to me because after that, there is absolutely nothing which would even remotely paint Telegram as a safe or secure messenger. Especially because everybody know why you are on Telegram. It's a different use case. I talk on Signal to people I know personally. They already have my number. People I know go on Telegram for porn and piracy over here. They still have Whatsapp or Signal to talk to their friends and family. They actually are ashamed that they have Telegram because everybody here know why they have it ;)

Moldoteck 3y ago

Well, it's different kind of things, on tgram you have usernames but lack privacy bc usual chats most ppl use are not e2ee. On signal you have nr as piblic info but all messages are e2ee. Also signal's backup& sync mechanism is very bad. Closest app to tgram is Whatsapp, without encryption downside. Next is maybe Element based on matrix protocol with signal type encryption for groups

msh 3y ago

It’s a feature. You get an instant social graph by being able to piggyback on people’s contacts. Also the original purpose of signal was secure sms, so using phone numbers make perfect sense.

codedokode 3y ago
I meant in Telegram you don't need to share your phone number with your contants or members of a public chat you've joined. While in WhatsApp or Signal your contacts know your number and can easily find out your identity and where you live if you write something they don't like.
- vel0city 3y ago
  I use Signal to talk to friends and family. Everyone I message on Signal are people who already know where I live.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tczMUFlmoNk 3y ago
Signal has an interesting article describing how, while contact discovery allows users to populate an instant social graph, Signal's servers still do not have access to that information, even as they send "so-and-so is now on Signal!" notifications: https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/ https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/ Of course, they have the ability to push a new client that hoovers up whatever they want, especially with their time-bomb policy of preventing old clients from sending messages until they're updated. But I was impressed by the lengths that they go to to build this privacy-preserving contact discovery service. I was especially interested to see their use of remote attestation "for good" and to preserve privacy and freedom, rather than systems like DRM and WEI that seek to compromise those.

tapoxi 3y ago

Why are you comparing Signal to Telegram? Telegram keeps all of your conversations on their servers in plain text, not to mention any other metadata. Signal only keeps your registration time and last login time. Yes it uses your phone number to do this, but they don't have anything else. Not even your contact list or who sent a message, they just know a blob went somewhere.

senectus1 3y ago
yeah, I never really understood how people keep putting the two products in the same space. they're really not the same thing.

noman-land 3y ago

Signal started as an e2e replacement for SMS, so it chose phone numbers on purpose to solve the discoverability problem, under the assumption that people will be communicating with all the same people who already have their number. Telegram has always been more social and more for communities or groups of potential strangers. The fact that people complain about Signal doxing you is in some ways a good sign, because it suggests Signal has become so popular and trusted that strangers want to use it to communicate privately. Signal helped pave the way for mainstream society to use communication tools that respect them without being a hacker or messing with a terminal.